AMERICA ONLINE APPLE // EDUCATION FORUM CHAT LOG Sunday, August 18, 1991 8 pm EDT TOPIC: Keyboarding MaryEz I didn't look at the schedule. What's on for tonight. Hi TooT!!:) AFC Tooter Keyboarding. MaryEz KEYBOARDING!!???? AFL Gayle Yes, keyboarding, Mary. MaryEz Who is going to be the expert on keyboarding? AFL Gayle All of us, Mary. Why do you ask? You know we run a democracy in AED. ;) Seriously, our topic tonight is keyboarding. I have one free hour to give away to the lucky person who says the secret word. You must stay until the end of the chat to be eligible to win and you must use the word in context. WENDYK7 What kind of keyboarding are we talking about? MaryEz I was wondering if you had someone who had done any studies on keyboarding and the proper age to MaryEz introduce it. I have some opinions on the subject but then I have opinions on all subjects ;) AFL Gayle Mary, I did quite a bit of research on it a couple of years ago when I was AFL Gayle doing some graduate work. Most of the research says yes, teach keyboarding, AFL Gayle and around grades 4-5, about 10 or 11 years old is the right time to start it. AFL Gayle This is just an open forum to discuss whether we should teach keyboarding. If AFL Gayle so, how do we go about it? What are the programs that have worked for you? MaryEz The high school business teachers feel they are the only ones who can teach proper keyboarding. AFC Tooter I hear some schools start it in third grade. Any opinions on that? AFL Gayle And I'm all ears. I've just got a new principal, and I've talked him into the AFL Gayle idea that we need to teach keyboarding, so I'm hoping for some experts who AFL Gayle have already done it. ;) AFL Gayle Why is that, Mary? (I know they do. I just don't know WHY they believe that.) AFC Tooter We start in 6th grade, but I'm not sure they all go far enough so that keying is easier than H&P. MaryEz Personally, I feel that at 5th grade the important thing is two hands on the keyboard, space bar, AFL Gayle I think it's a fantastic idea, Ted! :) I'm pushing for 4th grade at our school. MaryEz return key, esc key, shift. Not SPEED!! MaryEz Oh, and home row. AFC Tooter It never made sense to me to push for speed. That comes with use. AFL Gayle OK, Mary. I'm not so interested in speed, either. I'm more interested that they AFL Gayle don't learn bad hunt and peck habits. AFC Tooter Agreed!!! MaryEz I gave up using programs and use Appleworks and my own lessons. Trying to kill 2 birds with one stone AFC Tooter <----- victim of bad H&P habits. AFL Gayle It literally is painful to watch our junior high students try and word process. AFL Gayle They've been using the computer for 6 years. Yet it STILL takes HOURS to word AFL Gayle process because they haven't learned the keyboard. From my experience, it's AFL Gayle easier to catch them earlier when you can make it a fun game. Junior high bores AFL Gayle quickly and think they know the best way already. ;) MaryEz My objection is that when I only see kids one period in a six day cycle, there is little carry over. AFL Gayle So, Mary, tell us a little bit about how you teach it with AppleWorks. AFL Gayle Valid point, Mary. MaryEz I do the old asdf exercises within the AWks word processor. Just shouting out letters and they type them. AFL Gayle How is it taught at 6th grade in your school, Ted? AFL Gayle So you teach them the home row and then drill on it? MaryEz About 10 minutes at the beginning of each period. AFC Tooter They use a program. Not sure which. MaryEz Yes. Hand placement and go to it. AFL Gayle Remind me. What grades do you serve, Mary? MaryEz I alternate between fingers on each hand and then one hand etc. MaryEz 5th grade is where keyboarding is done. AFL Gayle Do you see carryover into word processing? Is it helping at all? Teachr CHM Am I too late to get in on this discussion? MaryEz Problem is there is no follow-up at the grades above me. AFL Gayle Welcome, Teachr CHM. NO! Join in! :) AFL Gayle We're discussing keyboarding, Teachr. Do you use any keyboarding programs with your students? Teachr CHM No, actually I find that students pick up the use of the keyboard through experience. MaryEz I think keyboarding should be taught at whatever grade computers are used. Beginning simply with MaryEz two hands on the keyboard. AFC Tooter Do they fall victim to hunt and peck as I have? AFL Gayle What grade students to you work with, Teachr? Teachr CHM It is true that they also pick up bad habits as well, so I can see a need for keyboarding. AFL Gayle Mary, but how does that work in my school? Students use the computer in kindergarten. Teachr CHM I work with college students so that may explain my reluctance in using keyboad programs. AFL Gayle They don't even know all of their alphabet yet (by sight) when they start using the computer. AFC Tooter Yes, by college it is their responsibility to pick it up. Teachr CHM oops, it is obvious that I need some help as well keyboad = keyboard AFL Gayle Agreed, that college students are on their own, but if we were teaching it AFC Tooter keybaud = a new computer term AFL Gayle earlier, you wouldn't have to worry about it. ;) MaryEz Then you have them use two hands on the keyboard even in one hand isn't doing anything. Space bar and AFC Tooter keybawd??? MaryEz return key and esc key. MaryEz Keybawd is southern for keyboard;) AFC Tooter That's not what I had in mind ;) Teachr CHM I remember when I first started using a computer keyboard, I began with one finger and have AFL Gayle Clarify what you are saying, Mary. They should keep their hands on the space Teachr CHM progressed to two fingers. AFL Gayle bar and ESC key? AFC Tooter I use lots of fingers, but H&P make me a slow copier though a swift typist. AFL Gayle To widen the scope of this a bit, have any of you used any of the alternate AFC Tooter make = makes MaryEz No, no. They should keep their hands on the home row by using the keys with the bumps. Use little MaryEz fingers for return and esc and thumbs for space. AFL Gayle keyboards? What do you think of, for example, use of the Muppet Keyboard which AFL Gayle has the letters in alphabetical order? Teachr CHM That is not a good idea because they will not be using such a keyboard later in life. MaryEz That doesn't seem too difficult but maybe I'm wrong. AFL Gayle Do you really think they have the coordination to do that, Mary? AFC Tooter I remember as a kid, long before computers, having a great time playing with my parents' typewriter. Teachr CHM If they are going to teach keyboarding use the advanced 101 key keyboard of IBM or the Apple keyboard AFC Tooter Standard key layout and lack of ability to writer never stopped me. Why go muppet? AFL Gayle Welcome, Snuffy! We're talking about keyboarding. Snuffy1 Thanks. What's keyboarding? AFL Gayle The Muppet keyboard makes it easier for them to find the letters, since they Teachr CHM I agree AFC Tooter why begin something that will build habits that will be difficult to break later AFL Gayle are in alphabetical order, Ted. I agree. I think they just confuse the issue AFL Gayle for kids. MaryEz I guess my bias is that I don't like spending my precious time with the kids on keyboarding as a MaryEz formal part of the curriculum. AFL Gayle Snuffy, keyboarding is teaching typing using the keyboard (sort of. ) AFL Gayle You don't think it would be worthwhile if there were follow through from the AFL Gayle grades after you, Mary? Snuffy1 Hi all! Is this Elementary ED? Teachr CHM Yes, exactly MaryEZ, they should pick keyboarding up as a section within the computer literacy course that is offered AFL Gayle So, Frank, are you a Hunt and Peck typist or touch type? :) AFC Tooter This is all levels of Ed. AFL Gayle We cover all grades, Snuffy. This is the Apple // Education Forum. Most likely, AFC Tooter Are you a teacher, Snuffy? AFL Gayle keyboarding is taught in elementary school, but that's part of what we're BCS Frank I'm strictly a Biblical method typist.... BCS Frank .... "Seek and You Shall Find." Snuffy1 Yes... University of IL AFL Gayle discussing. Should it be or should it be left in the high school business AFL Gayle department? MaryEz LOL, Frank. AFL Gayle What about your kids, Frank? Have they been taught touch typing? Should they BCS Frank <--Pecks away left handed only, usually 2-3 fingers max. AFL Gayle have been? Teachr CHM No, MaryEZ. I find the "hunt and peck" two finger modification very satisfactory. BCS Frank Sure should be -- but they haven't yet. MaryEz I don't think it should be left to the business department because that is a limited group of kids. AFL Gayle So where should we teach it, Mary? (and others?) BCS Frank I recommend 10 finger typing... my right hand doesn't type very well at all though. MaryEz When I teach adult ed, it amazes me how many people have never even touched a typewriter!! Teachr CHM I think that it should be taught within the computer course as a unit. AFL Gayle At what grade level, though, Teachr? KirstenM1 Are you all teachers, or what? AFL Gayle Are you a teacher, Kirsten? (All are welcome here. :) BCS Frank KirstenM1 I am an Employee Trainer at Aldus, does that count? AFL Gayle Some of us are teachers. Some, like Frank, are "or what"s? ;) BCS Frank :) Teachr CHM Probably at the level when they take their first formal computer literacy course. oops there I go again talking Teachr CHM like a college prof. AFL Gayle Certainly! Do the people who come to be trained know the keyboard yet or is AFL Gayle that something you have to cope with? AFL Gayle Right, Teachr. And when might that be? We consider what we do with drill and AFL Gayle practice in kindergarten computer literacy because they are learning disk care, AFL Gayle how to turn on the computer, load the disk, etc. Teachr CHM It should be introduced slowly as an introduction to their drill and practice routines. MaryEz Of course, an even deeper question for discussion is "What is computer literacy?" AFL Gayle OK, Mary. You asked the question. What do you think it is? (Others, feel free AFL Gayle to add your opinions. :) Snuffy1 Knowing how to turn it on an off Teachr CHM Oh, now MaryEZ, you have opened Pandora's box. Are you sure that this forum is prepared for that? BCS Frank It might be easier to define computer illiteracy.... AFL Gayle LOL, CHM! :) MaryEz LOL ;) Snuffy1 not knowing how to turn it on and off BCS Frank ... that is, a disability based on lack of knowledge or skill BCS Frank relating to computers. Teachr CHM Frank, that would take all night and we wouldn't probably get two same definitions between us. AFC Tooter Computer literacy is being sufficiently in command that you use it as a tool to do your work. BCS Frank Shucks, Tooter, you had that answer prepared. AFC Tooter Fools rush in... I've tried anyhow. Teachr CHM Is that from a textbook, Tooter? MaryEz Does computer literacy require that a person know HOW a computer works? Teachr CHM I don't think so nor does it mean that they have to become a programmer. BCS Frank It requires -some- knowledge of how they work. MaryEz Do they have to know about 0's and 1's? Teachr CHM A superficial knowledge at best, Frank. BCS Frank But mostly only as deep as the interface level. AFC Tooter Definitely not, Mary. Teachr CHM Why would that be necessary (0's and 1's)? MaryEz Do they have to know about Ram and Rom and flow charts? AFC Tooter They do need to know enough to know what a computer can do and can't do. AFL Gayle Should they know about RAM, ROM, and flow charts? Teachr CHM RAM and ROM would be probably necessary but why flow charts? BCS Frank Well, we introduced RAM and ROM in the BCS Frank first chapter of the Apple II Guide... BCS Frank because those are terms that users deal with. Teachr CHM Flow charts can be very confusing especially to the grade school children. Teachr CHM According to Piget, they have not reached the higher forms of learning at that stage. AFL Gayle Hmmm... that's an interesting idea, Frank, terms users deal with. So what else AFL Gayle should they know? AFL Gayle Welcome, Prize! Do you teach keyboarding to your students? BCS Frank Disk, Volume, Command and Alt keys, Boot, open & close files..... BCS Frank ... but only (at first) if they'll be using those BCS Frank terms. Teacher jn In a round about way! ;)) Teachr CHM Those are all necessary terms, Frank. MaryEz Frank, you're kidding!! Why? BCS Frank For the same reason a car driver needs to know brake and accelerator.... Teachr CHM Why what Mary? AFL Gayle ALT???? I don't see an ALT on MY keyboard, Frank! Are you inviting Big Blue AFL Gayle into this? ;) Teachr CHM You do have to have the necessary terms to be able to read and converse. MaryEz In these days of point and click software why do you have to know these things? BCS Frank Hey, watch it, or I'll start talking PgUp and PgDown! :) Teachr CHM Because a lot of people don't have mice yet and even if they do they still have to BCS Frank Mary, what I'm saying is that a user has to know AFL Gayle Uh oh. I'll be careful, Frank. ;) Seriously, though, I know a lot of IBM users Teachr CHM understand terms like close and opening files and disk access. BCS Frank the fundamentals of the interface(s) they're using. AFL Gayle who don't even know what NUM LOCK is and they've been using the computer for AFL Gayle years. MaryEz What is NUM LOCK, Gayle, I haven't the slightest idea? AFL Gayle On the IBM keyboard, Mary, there is a keypad (like on a gs) but on the IBM, BCS Frank NUM LOCK is the key that turns on the NUM LOCK light. :) Teachr CHM I believe that NUM LOCK allows you to use your keypad. Isn't that right? AFL Gayle it shifts. If NUM LOCK is on, you get numbers. If it's not, you get arrow keys AFL Gayle instead. Sort of works like CAPS LOCK. AFL Gayle I like Frank's definition better. ;) MaryEz I've heard of numb skulls but not NUM LOCKs. AFL Gayle Well, that's because you haven't used IBMS, I suspect, Mary. Apples are more AFL Gayle user friendly. ;) MaryEz That's for sure!!!! Teachr CHM Seriously though. Doesn't this suggest the impracticality of keyboarding as a formal training course? AFL Gayle Right, Teachr. :) BCS Frank Some MAC keyboards (third parties) have NUM LOCK keys as well. Teacher jn I agree with CHM! BCS Frank No, it suggests that keyboarding as a skill AFL Gayle MAC? What's a MAC, Frank? ;))) Teachr CHM When you have so many different styles of keyboards from Qwerty, Apple IBM standard and enhanced. BCS Frank needs to be taught on a practical level BCS Frank rather than on a formal level. Teacher jn That's the key element Frank, informal! AFL Gayle However, other than the infrequent DVORAK keyboard, most of the keyboards will Teachr CHM It needs to be taught if at all within the environment of the school that uses a specific hardware. AFL Gayle be Qwerty, so why shouldn't keyboarding be taught? BCS Frank For example...... BCS Frank when I teach AWorks to Adults, learning English as BCS Frank a second language... I teach using Open Apple.... BCS Frank ... but we never get to Closed Apple. Teachr CHM What keyboard would you teach Gayle? IBM standard? IBM enhanced? Apple keyboard IIe?, IIGS, Mac? Teacher jn STILL have 'typin' teachers! Using the computer enhances the students typing (keybdin') skills BCS Frank A Formal curriculum would include both. AFL Gayle Whatever keyboard is in use in that school, Teachr. In my case, the Apple //e AFL Gayle keyboard. Teachr CHM They all have different keyboards. The problem is there is no standard for the entire industry. AFL Gayle If you're using IBMs in the school, obviously, the IBM. The majority of the Teachr CHM We use the PC with enhanced 101 key keyboards. BCS Frank By the way, the biggest difficulty in going from/to Apple - IBM style is AFL Gayle keyboard is standard, though. BCS Frank not they keyboards... it's the different approach to functions. Teacher jn My students get the practical by using word processors and then value the kybdin', typing much more AFL Gayle Isn't it just like we used to teach typing on the typewriter in the "olden" AFL Gayle days, CHM? Teachr CHM If there was a standard keyboard then I would see the practicality of a keyboarding course. BCS Frank There are standards that apply to most all keyboards... those "core keys" BCS Frank should be learned. AFL Gayle The letters and numbers are pretty much standardized, CHM. Yes, some have MaryEz I use Dazzle Draw to teach pull down menus and mousing, then I go into keyboarding with AWKs. Teachr CHM Not really. The position of the keys are different. I know because I use both an Apple IIe and a IBM clone with an AFL Gayle keypads with numbers, too, but most of the keyboards have them across the top. Teachr CHM enhanced keyboard and I am always getting my fingers confused. BCS Frank Even the moving function keys of MS-DOS land have mostly BCS Frank settled down to one of two layouts. Teachr CHM Ah, there is the rub, Frank which of the two would you teach? BCS Frank I know how you feel... recently used a portable Mac with "French Canadian" AFL Gayle My concern is teaching the kids the concept of what SHIFT does, CAPS LOCK, and BCS Frank keyboard.... MaryEz Most of the keys are a basic typewriter keyboard which is what I think should be taught with younger MaryEz kids. AFL Gayle that they don't spend hours word processing a single page because they're BCS Frank I'd teach whichever they can use now... they'll AFL Gayle hunting all over for the letters. BCS Frank adapt to the minor differences as they go through life. Teachr CHM Now that seems more practical to teach them the function of each key instead of their position. AFL Gayle I know what you mean, CHM. I use both an IBM and an Apple keyboard at work, but BCS Frank Don't teach them "theory of keyboarding..." Help them learn to BCS Frank bash out some copy. AFL Gayle still, I can find the basic letters, regardless. AFL Gayle They don't move around on keyboards. BCS Frank That's a skill that'll carry over well into the 21st Century. Teachr CHM That would come with practice, wouldn't it, Frank? BCS Frank Yup, practice, and BCS Frank even more important, a real task for them to BCS Frank practice on... AFL Gayle By bash out some copy, does that include touch typing or hunt and peck, Frank? BCS Frank real in their view. Teachr CHM That is true about the letters but those function keys and special keys do, Gayle. BCS Frank Well, touch typing can be ok -- I use it myself... AFL Gayle I know they do, CHM. They even move depending upon whether you using a //e or a AFL Gayle GS. BCS Frank but if the student is task orientated, he/she will BCS Frank find that touch typing is even faster. AFL Gayle It's hopelessly not standardized in the IBM and clone world. MaryEz How much time each school year should be spent on keyboarding? Teachr CHM I would say whatever method is comfortable to the student which will probably be hunt and peck at first. BCS Frank And allows better screen following, etc. AFL Gayle Right, Frank, so we're back to the first question. Should we formally teach AFC Tooter Time? Until students find it easier to key than to H&P. AFL Gayle touch typing as part of the computer curriculum? BCS Frank For the control keys like OA, CA, PgUp, etc. .... Teachr CHM That is what we have grammar checkers and spell checkers for, Frank. BCS Frank teach the function, and show them early that BCS Frank different computers and keyboards move them around. BCS Frank Formally teach it as a separate topic? IMHO, no... Teachr CHM That is true, Frank. I have used a laptop PC two of them that have definitely different keyboards. BCS Frank it should be part of learning to write, of doing science and BCS Frank history projects, etc. BCS Frank CHM, you'd like some of the Keytronics keyboards... AFL Gayle So are you saying at that point, we should use a keyboarding program, Frank? BCS Frank you can move sections of the keyboard around like a puzzle. AFL Gayle I don't quite follow what you are saying. Sounds to me it's a separate topic Teachr CHM Another example of the confusion is Apple's including a special Apple IIe keyboard to be interchanged AFL Gayle within the larger framework of learning to use the computer? Teachr CHM with the keyboard that comes with their Mac LW (?) that can run Apple IIe programs. BCS Frank Well, if keyboarding should be a separate class is a question BCS Frank that goes to the heart of general curriculum planning. AFL Gayle A separate class or just a part of the overall computer curriculum? But should AFL Gayle it be a formal part of the curriculum at a certain age? BCS Frank What Apple did with the LC (putting the ESC key next to the space bar) MaryEz Should there be a computer curriculum or should computer be integrated into all curriculum areas? Teacher jn CHM Mac LC ?? ;)) BCS Frank will only serve to help support Beagle. AFC Tooter I somehow wish we'd return to old terminology. What we need to teach in Middle or Elem level is Teachr CHM Perhaps in the middle school grades. AFC Tooter TYPING. Kids need to have a planned curric that guarantees that they do not become hunt and peck typ AFC Tooter tpyists. Teachr CHM Ah yes Teacher jn the Mac LC. BCS Frank MaryEz... I'd say both. Involve computers as tools in other classes, AFL Gayle I agree, TooT. :) BCS Frank and in the language curriculum teach some formal typing skills. AFL Gayle Welcome, John! We're discussing keyboarding. MaryEz But, TooT, there aren't any business teachers in the elementary level;) AFC Tooter If I had it, I'd make fewer of those tpyos Teachr CHM Integration is the key to computer literacy not as a separate course. Teacher jn Right on Frank, supporting each other! Teachr CHM That simply startifies it like we do math education. AFL Gayle Ah, now we're getting somewhere, Frank. :) AFC Tooter If that's what is needed, then there ought to be. I'm not sure bus. teachers AFC Tooter are the ones to teach it to the little kids. BCS Frank Treat it much the same way as handwriting... all teachers need to respond to AFL Gayle Why are business teachers so much better trained to teach typing than others, BCS Frank it, but somewhere a teacher has to focus on it. AFL Gayle Mary? Is that an anachronism now? MaryEz But, don't you know that bus. teachers are the only ones that can REALLY teach keyboarding! AFL Gayle Ah, yes, Frank, but a teacher has to be ASSIGNED to teach it if we're going to AFL Gayle make SURE the kids will ALL be taught. AFC Tooter The emphasis should not be speed or accuracy, but coordination. It shgould be automatic, not perfect. AFL Gayle Do you believe they are, Mary? AFL Gayle I know they say that. BCS Frank Well, Gayle, at the beginning of each school year you put up this large MaryEz Like you, TooT;) AFC Tooter Bus teachers often have a whole set of biases that don't apply any more. BCS Frank dartboard..... AFL Gayle Agreed, TooT. :) BCS Frank :) AFL Gayle Well, our time is about up, and since AppleWorks is discussing education, I'm MaryEz No, Gayle, I don't believe it but I've been told that is their job, not mine. AFL Gayle sure some here will want to go check out that chat. AFL Gayle Since AFA Bard did not return from his trip in time to choose the secret words, Teachr CHM Thanks for the discussion. Obviously, we didn't settle this controversy. AFL Gayle I'm arbitrarily ;) awarding one free hour to Teachr CHM and MaryEz for active AFL Gayle participation in the chat! :) Teachr CHM Thank you very much Gayle. BCS Frank Way to go! :) AFC Tooter Yea!!!!!! Mary and cHM!!!! MaryEz Thanks, Gayle!! AFL Gayle You will have one free nonprime time hour credited to your account some time AFL Gayle later this week. Teachr CHM I appreciate the support and enthusiasm!!! AFL Gayle Join us next week at the same time AND place to find out all of the exciting MaryEz Obviously this topic is a lot hotter than some of the others we've had;) AFL Gayle School to School Projects AFC Tooter has lined up for the 1991-1992 School AFL Gayle Year! :)