Here's the *lightly* edited chat held on Sunday, March 5, 1992 in the Apple // Education Forum conference room. Our guest: Jim Wiggenhorn (formerly AFL Wiggy) AFL Gayle Well, I guess we'll get started. Our guest tonight is none other than our very AFL Gayle favorite person, Jim Wiggenhorn, in Wigster clothes tonight. Go with your AFL Gayle macros, Wiggy! :) Wigster Wigster Hi everybody, it's great to be back here in AED! Wigster One of the reasons I left the Education Forum Wigster a year and a half ago was my urge to travel and Wigster to see what other countries were doing in the Wigster way of reforming education. I spent two months Wigster in England visiting schools and learning about Wigster their new National Curriculum. Wigster So, I'll get right into it... In 1988 Parliament in Wigster London began noticing that there were problems Wigster in education. They saw a decay in discipline, Wigster they saw no standards for curriculum or for ex- Wigster cellence in the classroom. They were shocked at Wigster the administrative costs for each school. And, Wigster they saw that teachers were entering the pro- Wigster fession unprepared for the role ahead of them. Wigster These complaints sound familiar, don't they? I Wigster am surprised that we haven't seen more coverage Wigster of England's Education Reform Act of 1988 and Wigster its similarities with proposals put forth by the Wigster "Education President" and others. England and Wigster Wales are now moving into a new world of reforms Wigster in Education. Among these reforms are: Wigster * Minimum standards for all grade levels Wigster * National Standardized testing Wigster * Additional requirements for new teachers Wigster * Grant programs for unique schools Wigster * Funding changes for all schools Wigster * And most important, a National Curriculum Wigster To be honest, England's schools needed reform. Wigster Students who felt that they were college bound Wigster often found their hopes dashed with a poor score Wigster on the only criterion used for admissions, a Wigster series of tests done at the completion of high Wigster school. Wigster In addition, there was no accountability in any Wigster part of the educational system. Since the only Wigster achievement tests were at the end of high school Wigster there was no way to find out how students were Wigster doing. No report cards were given, although some Wigster districts did require parent/teacher conferences Wigster once or twice a year. No cumulative records were Wigster kept, and any teacher or school could determine Wigster the curriculum for each class. In short, there were Wigster no standards! Wigster And so, the macros are done now... I hope you Wigster haven't fallen asleep! Please feel free to ask any Wigster questions you might have, or I will continue to Wigster type away! There is so much to learn from the Wigster experiences of England and Wales! Wigster done! Wigster Hi Tim! The schools in your home country are in terrible shape! AFL Gayle Ah! Just like the olden days. :) And our wyrm went by as we were talking. AFL Gayle So where do computers fit in to this National Curriculum, Jim? AFL Gayle Y'all feel free to jump in at any time! :) Wigster Gayle, they have just released (as of a year ago, a national curriculum for Wigster Information Technology. It fits into the rest of the Wigster curriculum lumped in a package with home economics. AFL Gayle Home Ec?? Why there? Wigster They are doing many of the same things we are, although there is a decided emphasis on using computers AFL Gayle Welcome, Jedi! We're discussing The British National Curriculum. Feel free to Wigster as control devices. That is one whole section of the IT curriculum. AFL Gayle ask questions. :) Wigster Well, in home ec, you learn all about running machines, banking, etc, and computers are perfect in Wigster those things. Wigster Hiya, Jedi. AFL Gayle What brands of computers are they using? Any favorite software? Tim Serious? Wigster They don't use Apple IIs in England and very few schools use Macs... Wigster It seems that when computers started to enter the classroom, the lawmakers wrote into grants that Wigster the computers had to be of English origin. Tim Clones? Tim BBC Computers? Wigster The computers they use for the most part are Acorn BBC computers... Tim ! MaryEz I guess Wigster just got bumped too! AFL Gayle Tim, go ahead. Uh oh, we lost Wiggy. He said he was having trouble with AFL Gayle Tymnet. Tim Tho' I'm a Brit I've been here too long to express a qualified view but... Tim I do know that they had a national push towards computer literacy with the BBC leading the way... Tim with a complete course that included a BBC computer. Tim The Acorn. Wigster back! Ouch trhch, that hurt! Tim (My eject Wiggy command still works!) :D AFL Gayle Aren't the Acorns similar to the Apple? Wigster OK... Anyway, the Acorn (and the Research Machines IBM compatible) were the two computers AFL Gayle Well, don't use it here, any more, please, Tim! :) MaryEz No, Acorns grow Oaks! Wigster schools bought... The Apple II never made it. But, Acorn continued to develop the computer and made Tim I dunno, Wiggy what is the Acorn compatible with? Wigster a tremendously powerful computer. The operating system of that computer was so powerful, Apple bought AFL Gayle Oh, right, Mary. ;) Wigster the OS (RiscOS) a year ago. Wigster But, the computers are unreliable and impossible to fget serviced... Tim Was your feeling that the Brits are ahead or behind the US in computer education? Wigster A friend of mine took his computer to have a hard drive installed and it took three months. At the end of that time, there was still no HD> Wigster The acorn is compatible with nothing! Wigster The brits are ahead in that they have a national curriculum... Wigster they are behind in that the computers and software are soo poor. AFA Andy Do they integrate computers into all classes or is it a different subject? Tim But educational funding is lower over there as well isn't it? Wigster Their National curriculum spells out exactly what each child should know in each grade level... and i Wigster it is very comprehensive. MaryEz Do you think a national curriculum would hold back those of us who are adventuresome? Wigster Tim... The funding is very strange... Wigster For example, the LEAs (Local Education Authorities) are being Wigster phased out and schools are getting direct funding from the National Govenrment. Tim Mary, I'd imagine it'd work both ways. Good to have a national plan but bad in restricting creativity Wigster Mary, no.... The national curriculum is the minimum standards... Wigster and they are very easy to complete... At least they have standards now... MaryEz Do they support teacher training? Which I feel is one of our problems here! Wigster so few teachers were using computers in the schools. AFL Gayle Wiggy, what do they do to schools who don't reach the standards? Wigster They encourage creativity... The standards just say things like, at year two, children must know that Wigster computers can control other machines... Tim Sounds neat. Wigster at year three, the students must use the computers to control machines (LOGO with mechanical turtles i MaryEz Don't have to touch a computer to do that! Wigster is popular in this regard. Wigster The teachers are left to develop their own methods of teaching these things. AFL Gayle So do they have a national test they take each year? MaryEz What age is year 2? Wigster Every third year, the students take the test... Wigster as a matter of fact, this month marks the second test being given... Wigster Last year's test was just a demo test to see if it works. They are phasing it MaryEz Can you give us some examples of questions from the test? Wigster in slowly... third year students took the test this year... it will be two more years before the Wigster sixth year students take it. MaryEz Third year equals third grade? Wigster Well, I have not seen the test and I am not sure if they even allow anybody to see it... Wigster but first, they are not calling it a test, they are calling it an assessment and the scores on the Tim Or Third Form? AFL Gayle Do you know if it's a multiple choice, scannable test? Wigster assessment are not etched in stone... as a matter of fact, the teacher's assessment of the students Wigster achieving the correct level counts twice as much as the test itself. Wigster Third year is about 2nd grade. Wigster They will take the test in the third year, the sixth year, the nineth year, and at the end of Wigster schooling. Wigster Previous to now, the only national testing happened at the end of all schooling... Wigster then the prospective college students took their A level tests in several subjects to see if they Wigster were smart enough to enter university. Wigster Eventually, the National curriculum assessments will be given as well as A levels and O levels. AFL Gayle Could you explain A and O levels, please, Jim? Wigster The trouble has bee, with no real national curriculum, students who changed schools might miss Wigster important stuff in the change between two clases. A poor performance on the A levels means no college Wigster period. Wigster A levels are super tests... A student who feels that he or she does well in Science, Math, and Wigster British History would take the A levels in those subjects. If he did well, he could study those Wigster subjects in college. Wigster There is no basic, two year course of general education Wigster requirements. Wigster The Students go right into work in their major areas. Wigster So, while they are not well-rounded students, they are able to advance to higher levels of Wigster college education in their major areas. Wigster Only about a third (or less) of the students actually go on to college. Others go on to trade Wigster schools or out into the work force. They must do well on the A levels if they are to go to college. Wigster if they are sick or esxperience a death in the family, tough. Gazook.... no re-taking the exams. Wigster No college. Wigster No middle class life. Wigster done. AFA Andy Do they teach all children within certain age levels, or just the ones that ... Wigster Of course, all this will be changing in the next ten years as grading is introduced to the English AFA Andy wish to attend? Wigster Schools. Wigster I am not sure what you are asking, Andy... Wigster There is mandatory attendance in schools and the national curriculum covers all Wigster of those students. AFL Gayle I think he's asking is attendance compulsary or optional? AFA Andy That answered my question :) AFL Gayle GMTA. :) Wigster The interestng thing that Tim mentioned earlier is funding. They are now experimenting with Wigster local (school) control of schools... AFL Gayle What do you mean by grading, Jim? Do they not give grades now? Wigster A committee of teachers, parents, and the Head teacher (Principal) decide who the money is to be Wigster spent. The middle man, the local school board is cut out of the whole mess.... Wigster this is good and bad... The schools get more money, but you have Head Teachers (who have no Wigster additional training in administration) deciding how the money should be spent... Wigster if they don't put up money for general repairs from year to year, a leaky roof can destory all the Wigster funding for one year. Wigster No, they do not give grades... They have conferences with parents, but up until the new National Wigster curriculum, there was no Wigster paper work on each student... when a student changes schools, there are no grades Wigster that follow him or her. Wigster Now, at least with the national curriculum the teachers must keep track of the different levels Wigster (taks they call them) that the children have completed. Wigster At least there is some way to judge how a student is doing. RagenT Hard to believe that such a civilized country as England, can't keep up with Wigster The computer companies are coming up with a uniqe way of funding computers in the classroom. RagenT students records. Wigster RM (Research Machines) is working with the banks to loan money to the schools for the computers. Wigster The computers, on paper, belong to the banks. At the endo of the four year period of paying for the Wigster computers, they still aren't paid for completely.... it is at this point that the banks then "give" Wigster the computers to the school... they get a hefty write-off. Wigster Ragen... in some ways, I like their system... Wigster teachers are not as bound by rules and regulations... Wigster I saw some great things happening in the classes... Wigster for example, many schools would develop a theme for the smester... Wigster something like peace. They might spend one day reading "A Separate Peace" and then using more Wigster time to make a drawing of their feelings... Wigster They are not bound to 50 minutes of math, fifty minutes of science... RagenT What about testing, ie like our "regents" or CTBS. These tests make many of Wigster they can devote lots of time to a project, knowing that science and math will have their projects Wigster later. RagenT our teachers feel very accountable and having to prepare students to take Wigster Well, you missed the first part... RagenT these tests. Wigster They are just introducing national testing... RagenT (you are right, I did:) Wigster not as rigourous as regents testing, but the A level exams take care of that at the end of the Wigster student's edcucation career. Wigster The problem is, teachers were worried that the national testing would be used to determine Wigster how well they were teaching. They were VERY concerned also that these national tests would be used Wigster by parents to compare their children.... AFA Andy Sounds like a few teachers I know. Wigster And they are very much interested in keeping down the competition between children. Wigster Well, it's also interesting that there is a shortage of teachers there. RagenT Why? Wigster Good teachers can pick a job in any school they want, and the poor teachers get stuck in Tower Hamlets Wigster The dock area of London.... Wigster The teaching conditions are very poor... Wigster teachers in the London area cannot make a living... AFL Gayle How are teachers paid, Jim? Are salaries determined locally? Wigster the cost of living is so great... and they are given a hefty ($4000) supplement to live in the London Wigster area. Wigster Salaries are determined locally, but when the schools go to school control, the salaries will Wigster be determined by the Head Teacher. Wigster I haven't even mentioned a whole other category of school.... Wigster The "Grant Maintained" School. These schools choose to "Opt Out" of their local area all together Wigster and the federal govenrment determines how much they get... The schools write grant proposals and the Wigster money if the projct is worth it... Wigster these schools actually get a bunch more moeny than other schools... Wigster and are, in effect, publicly owned private schools... RagenT Do these schools have to reapply every year? Wigster Very much like Bush has recommended. Wigster Yes, they do have on-going grant proposals... Wigster which makes it a bit more difficult to convince parents and teachers to "Opt Out" of the system... Wigster To date, only a few schools (probably about 10) in the entire coutnry have chosen to Opt OUt. Wigster They also get a flat fdee from the govenrment every year, too.] RagenT Are some of the inner city schools able to take advantage of this grant program? AFL Gayle Oops, I've got to go. AFL Meeting. Thanks for coming, Jim! Very fascinating AFL Gayle topic! :) Wigster No inner city schools have done this... ****** End of chat log *******