9/17/90 8:12:58 PM Opening "AED.9.16.90" for recording. AFL Gayle AFA Bard RagenT GerryR5 TIIE Jim MaryEz IES Coord RalphF2 AFL Marty BCS Frank AFL Biblia DougB5 GuS Grafix AFL Marty AFL Oli AFL Gayle : Welcome to the Apple // Education Forum! Please : check the HotShot at the top of your menu for : our topic this evening and other AED chats this : week. : : Be sure to check out the new libraries in The : Education Connection. We now have new libraries : for ScrapBook files and for School-to-School : Lesson Plans. Our regular libraries continue to : grow every day, so be sure you make the New : Files Library a regular stop on your visits to : AED. : : The Message Boards have been improved to allow : you to search for only new messages. Please be : sure you read and contribute to the AED Let's : Discuss boards regularly. We also have message : boards in our Direct Connect area and our : Special Interest Groups. : : Now to tonight's topic. Tonight is your night : to dream. :) Your rich old Aunt Susie has died. : You were always her favorite niece or nephew, : so she has left $20,000 but specified that it : MUST be spent on computer hardware in your lab. : : What are your recommendations to the BOE on how : to spend this bequest? We don't use protocol, : so please feel free to add your comments! DougB5 : Why would she specify that? AFL Gayle : OK. Y'all can talk again. :) DougB5 : :) GerryR5 : The new libraries are GREAT!! I found them this afternoon. JUST what we need! Very practical! :) AFL Gayle : Because you've convinced her the BOE doesn't give you enough money, Doug. :) AFA Bard : (She owned a LOT of Apple stock, Doug.) AFL Gayle : And, of course, you've already convinced her how important computers are. :) MaryEz : I would get a Digicard Network for my lab, Office, Guidance Office, and any other area using computers AFL Gayle : That, too, Bard. :) DougB5 : I'd buy some oscilloscopes, a laser or two, some CAD machines... and I'd DougB5 : spend the rest on RAM for the IIGSes so that we can all use Hyperstudio! :) MaryEz : Good Idea! : OK, Mary. Why did you pick DigCard instead of some other network? AFL Gayle : Err, Digicard, that is. :) DougB5 : Let's see...how many megs will $20,000 buy at today's prices? Hmmm... GerryR5 : I would upgrade memory on our computers past 64K, and get a decent printer.. AFL Gayle : How do you define "decent MaryEz : I saw it demonstrated at NECC but Roger Wagner of HyperStudio fame and liked it very much. GerryR5 : and a few more GS's above the 2 we have..:) AFL Gayle : printer, Gerry? DougB5 : Gerry, if your computers have 64k to begin with, maybe you need a few DougB5 : more modern computers! :) AFL Gayle : Can you tell us a little about it, Mary? I've heard rave reviews of it but GerryR5 : anythng above the original model of an Okidata..:) AFL Gayle : don't really know anything about it. GerryR5 : we have one..that's it!!! MaryEz : It has the ability to lock out keyboards, put any monitor display on all monitors, and is faster than AppleShare AFL Gayle : How many computers do you have, Gerry? DougB5 : Maybe I'd give the money to Apple Computer and tell them to expedite the release of Hypercard GS GerryR5 : I agree, Doug!!! Want to come and talk to my principal tomorrow? :) AFL Gayle : LOL! Not a bad idea, Doug. :) AFA Bard : Mary... isn't the monitor display control an add-on feature? AFA Bard : Amen, Doug! DougB5 : Of course, what would $20k mean to those turkeys? They get that much on one Macintosh IIci! :):) AFA Bard : LOL! GerryR5 : 2 gs's, 5 Apple IIs, 3 lasers.. AFL Gayle : In a lab, Gerry? MaryEz : There is a card that goes into each computer to allow this I guess. I'm just starting to investigate. AFA Bard : Lasers OLD or Lasers NEW, Gerry? GerryR5 : no color monitors either...I would get some of those.. AFA Bard : Right, Mary. I saw the same system at NECC in Nashville this summer. It was really neat! Even MaryEz : Lee Hayward on AOL has one and highly recommends it. AFA Bard : had a hand-held remote! AFL Gayle : Great ideas, Gerry. And Doug, I can't beat your more RAM for the GS. I'm still MaryEz : Right AFL Gayle : screaming about my 2 GSes at school that have 512K. :( GerryR5 : Gayle, you might call it a lab..it is a room where they put the computers the teachers won't use.. AFA Bard : Welcome Babz001! DougB5 : Bard, please...I'm a student with LOTS of free time! I need Studioware ideas! GerryR5 : they expected the title one teacher to use them, and are shocked that she can't teach the other kids.. AFA Bard : Oh, Doug.. you've really done it now! I got a million ideas and NO time! ;))) AFL Gayle : Yes, I know, Mary. Was just looking for more information about it. :) RagenT : Our 2 special ed teachers have GS's but the rest have various assortments of DougB5 : Well send them my way! :) RagenT : IIe's and odd monitors. DougB5 : Give me a subject, a digitizer, some information, and I'll do the rest! :) RagenT : I would like to see more printers for the elementary and a network for our junior high. MaryEz : My lab is just about perfect after years of carting computers between two schools in my car. I have GerryR5 : HI Ralph!!! :) DougB5 : Just kidding about the digitizer. All I need are ideas, ideas, ideas... MaryEz : 25 GS and 7 printers, projection system, laser disc, vcr, cd player, keyboard, video overlay and GerryR5 : I cart my GS to school whenever we do AO stuff..:) MaryEz : video camera AFA Bard : OK.. so we've got GS's, Digicard networks and more RAM... do I hear SCANNERS??? AFA Bard : Welcome Ralph, Michael!!! DougB5 : My school has replaced its entire GS Writing Lab with Macintosh SE/30s! :(:( AFL Gayle : Yes, Bard! :) Michael440: thanks GerryR5 : Mary..you are in heaven!!!! AFL Gayle : Ack! What did they do with the GSes, Doug? GerryR5 : Send them to us, would you Doug??? DougB5 : They had them networked. Appleworks, Sensible Grammar, etc etc... and now MaryEz : why scanners? I haven't yet figured out a really practical use. I have Computer Eyes which is OK for GS DougB5 : it's MacWrite, MacWrite, MacWrite... :(:(:( DougB5 : I HATE MACWRITE!!! :) GerryR5 : I would like the LCD that lets you use the computer and project it.. AFL Gayle : I was thinking about the new hand held Quickie scanner, Mary, with the new software that will read words instead of digitizing pictures. Ah, there's GerryR5 : Hi, Marty!!! :) AFA Bard : Hiya Marty! DougB5 : I might just buy the Quickie. I'm a terrible computer artist, and, aside AFL Gayle : Marty! He knows more about what I'm rambling about. :) DougB5 : from clip-art, there's no other way to do hypermedia! :) AFL Gayle : Welcome, Marty. :) AFL Marty : Huh AFL Marty : I don't know nuthin' :) GerryR5 : Yes, Gayle!!! That software sounds great!!! :) AFA Bard : Hey Frank! Welcome to the chat... you've got $20,000... now spend it on hardware!!! :) RagenT : Thunderscan is time consuming and confusing. BCS Frank : Hi, y'all! DougB5 : It's Marty, all the way from APR! I liked your CDA. I have it installed now RagenT : How is Quickie? GerryR5 : But I thought we were limited to hardware in this yopic? :) AFL Marty : Thanks! AFA Bard : Agreed Ragen.. and the results are really confusing sometimes, too! GerryR5 : topic.. AFL Gayle : Sorry, Marty. Didn't mean to put you on the spot. :) It's the software that GerryR5 : HI Frank!! :) BCS Frank : For me, for school, for what? BCS Frank : Hi, Getty :) AFL Gayle : Rob Renstrom and Alan Bird are doing that goes with the Quickie. MaryEz : How about a Laser printer? One for each of you! AFL Gayle : Well, I have a philosophy about that, Gerry. I can't buy hardware with my AFL Marty : InWords DougB5 : I just figured out what I'd spend the money on! I'd buy that rumored DUET RagenT : Oh, yeh I'd like a Laser printer! AFL Marty : Optical Character Recognition software for the Quickie. AFL Gayle : budget money, so I always find hardware that has software with it. Then I'm DougB5 : card, so that everyone would be able to use both Appleworks AND Macwrite.. GerryR5 : That's it, Marty!!!! :) AFA Bard : Hiya Leonard! AFL Gayle : buying software and just HAPPEN to get some hardware with it. Reversing the situation now. ;) DougB5 : and hey, rumors only cost a penny apiece. I could buy ...what...2 million of'm AFL Marty : You have a question about it? AFL Biblia: Hi all! AFL Gayle : Welcome, Leonard. :) Is is available yet, Marty? BCS Frank : Evening, Leonard GerryR5 : HI Leonard!!!! :) AFL Gayle : That's a good idea, Doug. :) AFL Marty : Not yet Gayle. Middle to end of October. MaryEz : That's the way it is with me too! Is hardware with software considered supplies? BCS Frank : Heard InWord supposed to ship in October. AFL Marty : Duet isn't rumored. There's a press release for it in AHW. AFL Marty : Correct Frank. RagenT : If I had 20,000 some other department would probably find a way to confiscate. GerryR5 : What laser printer would you buy? DougB5 : Well, no one will ever get me to believe that what it does is beyond rumor... DougB5 : until I see it in action RagenT : it . Probably the trash department! AFL Gayle : Thanks, Marty. :) AFL Marty : You're welcome :) AFL Gayle : Wouldn't be in our county, Mary. Supplies are defined as expendables, such as DougB5 : That's right... is this before or after federal taxes, Gayle? AFL Gayle : paper, duplicating masters, etc. AFA Bard : How about $20,000 worth of AO time??? LOL! GerryR5 : Doug!!!! ;) DougB5 : They'd take away about $19,990 of it... and that would leave you with what... AFL Gayle : Nope, Ragen. Aunt Susie's will is specific. ;) MaryEz : I know but I never stop trying. DougB5 : maybe a mousepad?! :):) AFL Marty : But what would you do for the second month? :) AFL Gayle : That's not hardware, Bard! ;) BCS Frank : That's a lot of inter-school connection time! :) AFL Biblia: That'd only be valid if you were an AFL or AFA, Bard. GerryR5 : Good one, Leonard!!! ;) BCS Frank : Would a credit card be considered hardware? MaryEz : A rose by any other name would smell as sweet!:) AFA Bard : LOL! In MY school, AO IS hardware. (My principal doesn't know the difference yet!!! LOL!) RagenT : More than hardware, we need more computer specialists to help the classroom AFL Gayle : You have to pay all taxes and shipping and handling on it with your $20,000. RagenT : teachers who are inundated with too much of everything. AFL Biblia: Well., If I bought a Mac IIci, a laser printer and a new desk, that would take MaryEz : You are tough, Gayle AFL Biblia: a GOOD portion of the money. DougB5 : Aww shaddup, Onlinehost! :) GerryR5 : Yes, Ragen..we are having that problem...but the teachers fight the help too..:( AFL Marty : I missed the original question Gayle. AFL Gayle : OK, Marty. (Detention for being late. Bard conducts detention. ;) BCS Frank : Hmm.. gs with oh projector set ups, 30 keyboards, ADB switchbox & lots of cable AFL Gayle : Now to tonight's topic. Tonight is your night : to dream. :) Your rich old Aunt Susie has died. : You were always her favorite niece or nephew, GerryR5 : LOL, Gayle!!!!! AFL Gayle : so she has left $20,000 but specified that it : MUST be spent on computer hardware in your lab. : What are your recommendations to the BOE on how to spend this bequest? We don't use protocol, BCS Frank : Each of the students would have a shot at running the classroom computer AFL Marty : It wasn't my fault. There was a fight in the hallway. AFL Gayle : so please feel free to add your comments! BCS Frank : from their desk. DougB5 : brb GerryR5 : I have an Aunt Suzy..but she would never leave me anything..;) AFL Gayle : Doug, you mean you're being offered $20,000 and you're quibbling over whether AFL Marty : That's easy. AFL Gayle : you KNOW Aunt Susie! ;) BCS Frank : Anyone leaves me $20,000, I know them. :) GerryR5 : Doug is just too practical!! :) AFL Marty : I'd buy as many Apple IIGS computers as I could. AFL Gayle : Exactly, Frank. :) GerryR5 : Hi Jim!!! :) RagenT : Me too! TIIE Jim : Hello AFL Gayle : Welcome, Jim! :) RagenT : And a MAC... BCS Frank : Hi, Jim AFL Marty : No Mac MaryEz : How about a notebook computer for each kid to carry. Even a Tandy 102 would do it. Then dump to Mac. DougB5 : Where are the new software libraries?Your mail has been sent RagenT : That would be more than 20 thous. AFL Gayle : Jim, I'm going to put you on the spot since you stopped by. ;) Doug was BCS Frank : Yup but dump to gs AFA Bard : Welcome Doug, Jim, GuS!! GerryR5 : HI Marian!!! Long time no see! :) AFL Gayle : asking about StoryWorks earlier. Would you tell us a little bit about it, please? :) AFL Marty : I wouldn't buy any Macs at all... not for my school. AFL Gayle : Welcome, Marian. :) TIIE Jim : I'd be happy to... RagenT : I'd like to know more about Storyworks too. AFL Gayle : New Software Libraries are the first library in every library in the forums, Doug. TIIE Jim : StoryWorks allows AW users to create their own hypertext software... Basically it works by letting users link segments of text in the much... GuS Grafix: [[[Gayle :) ]]] TIIE Jim : the same way that hypercard or tutortech links screens... StoryWorks also adds scoring, and sound effects... MaryEz : Who publishes it? TIIE Jim : It is published by TIIE, P.O. Box 6229, Lincoln NE 68506 and sells for... the LOW, LO price of $49.95:) AFA Bard : You asked the RIGHT person, Mary. :) (BTW.. it's well worth the money!! Plug, Plug!) TIIE Jim : It comes with a limited site license... RagenT : What about input devices, what does it require.? TIIE Jim : which allows users to make up to 35 copies for use in a single classroom... AFL Gayle : The first time I was previewing it, I had the sound on my GS turned way down. Still, every time one of those sound effects came on, I had kindergarteners MaryEz : Will it interact with laser disc player? TIIE Jim : building and distrrict licences are also available. AFL Gayle : AND the older students (8th graders) running over to see what I was "playing with." RagenT : Could I use it on an Apple II e 128K? DougB5 : Physics teachers: download my new lissajous figure generator, just over 1kbyte TIIE Jim : It runs on any Apple II... even those with 64K DougB5 : But 64k machines generally can't run Appleworks, right? TIIE Jim : YES, even a II+, although to take...advantage of 80 col display you would need an 80 col card... StoryWorks RagenT : What about graphics? TIIE Jim : displays text in either 80 or 30 col, 30 is great for little kids... graphics DougB5 : Is your product comparable to NEXUS, Jim? GerryR5 : Does it run on a GS? AFA Bard : Welcome, Bruce! TIIE Jim : are limited to the kinds of line drawings you can do with AW AFL Gayle : Welcome, Bruce. Jim is telling us about StoryWorks. GerryR5 : GMTA, Doug!! :) DougB5 : Wow... the Apple II really has quite a few hypermedia packages... TIIE Jim : NEXUS requires a lot more hardware and utilizes graphics, which SToryW. won't DougB5 : Hyperstudio, Nexus, SW, soon to be Hypercard GS, Tutor Tech... now wonder we're beating the IBM in the schools... RagenT : How would you compare to Tutor-tech? AFL Gayle : Also HyperScreen from Scholastic, Doug. DougB5 : Ah yes... Hyperscreen... Hyperscreen?!?? TIIE Jim : BTW, StoryWorks has now been installed in every school in Columubs OH... smart DougB5 : What the heck is Hyperscreen? :):) TIIE Jim : teachers there !! :) MaryEz : TutorTech has great telephone support. AFL Gayle : HyperMedia from Scholastic that runs on a 128K Apple. TutorTech also has online support here in Direct Connect. StoryWorks has online support here in our Special Interest Group. DougB5 : Does the Macintosh even have a hypermedia system beyond the boring, confusing, black and white Hypercard? :) GerryR5 : HI Bruce! :) BCS Frank : Well, the LC MAC should be able to run SW and TT. :) GerryR5 : Rehi Marty! :) GuS Grafix: Well, HyperCard 2 for the Mac is supposed to support color and SuperCard 2.0... AFL Gayle : LOL, Frank! :) MaryEz : Bye all. Nice meeting you. :) :) AFL Marty : LC Mac... Phah AFL Gayle : Thanks, Marian. :) BCS Frank : Bye, Mary AFA Bard : And you could buy quite a few of the LC's for $20K, Frank. :)) DougB5 : Bye all! Bard, post those Hyperstudio ideas when you get a chance! :) GuS Grafix: from Silicon Beach supports color on a Mac II RagenT : Bye Mary. AFL Gayle : Bye, Mary. Thanks for coming and look for that TT Stack, please! :) AFA Bard : See ya Doug...will do! AFL Gayle : Bye, Doug! Thanks for coming. :) GerryR5 : By, Mary!!! Cone back again soon!!!! :) DougB5 : exactly 12.5 LCs if they turn out to sell for $1,600, Bard! BCS Frank : Well, a few anyway... got to buy the IIe emulation cards too. Not like a gs.:)maryez is not currently signed on. AFL Gayle : Thanks, Jim. :) GerryR5 : By Doug!!! :) TIIE Jim : Bye folks RagenT : Thanks for the info Jim. AFL Gayle : Bye, Jim. Thanks for stopping by. :) : Back to Aunt Susie. She has given you $20,000 for computer hardware. What would AFA Bard : How 'bout some robotics gizmos with the $20,000... anyone interested?? AFL Gayle : you buy for your computer lab? RagenT : So how much money have we spent? AFL Gayle : Tell us more about it, Bard. BCS Frank : Robo-Logo? X-10 boxes for the classroom? AFL Biblia: It has to be for hardware, Gayle? AFL Gayle : Yes, Leonard. AFA Bard : Well.. there's LegoLogo, an interactive Logo set. X-10 boxes would be GREAT too.. RBX just introduced AFA Bard : a new A// friendly classroom robot, too! AFL Gayle : RBX? AFL Biblia: That's a shame... GuS Grafix: That sounds neat Bard... can you tell us a bit more about the classroom robot? AFA Bard : (We've got to wait for Uncle Steve to kick off before we buy software, Leonard.) The RBX is a fully functioning robot that stands about 3 feet tall. It's got light sensors, motion GuS Grafix: (I've seen literature on LegoLogo and on the X-10 system, but not on the robot) AFL Biblia: I had something entirely different in mind. GerryR5 : LOL, Bard!!!!! :) AFA Bard : sensors, and optical systems. It can even follow tape on the floor and plug itself in. Some of my students can't do that! :) AFL Gayle : OK, Leonard. We'll entertain your idea after Bard tells us about the robot. :) AFL Marty : What would you use such a robot for? RagenT : Good question and how much do they run? BCS Frank : Buy enough hardware to support local user group meetings; they'll supply the AFA Bard : Chasing students without late passes, Marty? Seriously... procedural thinking, problem solving, BCS Frank : software. AFA Bard : some physics. They WALK, but at a price of $500.00 it's not a bad deal! AFL Gayle : LOL, Frank. :) Who are they available from, Bard? RagenT : Could we use them for recess and bus duties? AFL Marty : Sounds like an awfully expensive toy IMHO.... AFA Bard : RBX. They're advertised in many Science periodicals. Saw it in Science Teacher. AFL Gayle : LOL, Ragen. :) BCS Frank : Seriously, Gayle... some schools and groups do that now. AFA Bard : Ooooo Bus Duty! Great idea! And FACULTY meetings, too? AFL Marty : unless they do a much better job than more traditional teaching aids. AFL Gayle : If you tell me you can program it to shelve books, I'm interested, Bard. Only GuS Grafix: Bard, are they student-programmable like the legoLogo sets are? Do they teach AFL Gayle : thing my automated Circ system won't do. GuS Grafix: programming logic or what? AFL Marty : Sunburst makes a variety of problem-solving program that can be had for AFL Marty : a fraction of that cost. BCS Frank : Teaching robots is a really instructive way to learn, and learn what you know. GerryR5 : Robots are the way of the future, Marty!!! That is just what they used to say about computers, BTW!!:) AFA Bard : Agreed, Marty. But, after all, we're dreaming! :) LOL Gayle! Yes, Marion, they're student AFA Bard : programmable... BASIC, ASSEMBLER or LOGO. AFA Bard : Welcome OLI!!!! GREAT to see ya! AFL Gayle : Welcome, Oli! :) AFL Marty : That's what all the technology-ed reps keep telling me Gerry... BCS Frank : Hi, Oli ! ========== GerryR5 : HI Oli!!!! :) GuS Grafix: Hmmm... Did you say they cost only $500??? AFL Oli : Hi! AFL Marty : The problem I have with that is they're the same ones trying to sell... AFL Marty : this stuff. AFL Gayle : Which LOGO, Bard? GerryR5 : LOL, Marty!!!! :) Are you turning into the next resident curmudgeon? :) AFA Bard : Yep, GuS... I'll check again and e-mail you. :) I think LOGOWriter or Apple Logo, Gayle. AFL Marty : I've learned a lot by switching departments at the middle school. AFL Gayle : Thanks, Bard. OK, Leonard. Because you've been SO persistent, Aunt Susie's GuS Grafix: Thanks... and I could use some ordering info, too... the kid I sold my third GS AFL Gayle : lawyer has searched her papers and found a document that says IF you can GuS Grafix: to is heavily into robotics, so I think his mom might be interested in info GuS Grafix: on this :) AFL Gayle : justify spending it for something OTHER than hardware, he will listen to you AFL Biblia: I'd use the money to try to reach those people (juniors, senior citizens, what- BCS Frank : Now if you can only get the robots to program the computers.... :) AFL Gayle : your suggestions. :) What do you want to spend the $20,000 on? GerryR5 : <---thinks Gayle should be a mystery writer..;) AFL Biblia: ever), who are deserving on a computer education. This assumes that a fully AFL Marty : How about a vacation in Aruba? :) AFL Biblia: equipped lab is available. AFA Bard : <--- thinks Gayle is a mystery. :) AFL Biblia: These would be the people who would otherwise fall through the cracks in the AFL Biblia: "system." BCS Frank : <--- thinks Gayle IS a mystery writer. & we are her characters. GuS Grafix: I'd get HyperStudio pronto, in that case, Gayle RagenT : Sending me to school to learn computer hardware repair is a good idea! AFA Bard : Great idea, Leonard. And have them write some stackware for kids, too, while you're at it! AFL Gayle : I agree, Ragen! :) AFL Biblia: In a sense, you would be turning these people into evangelists of a sort and RagenT : Is there a recommended good book on repair, by the way? AFL Biblia: could help spread the word and quiter probably increase computer sales and AFL Biblia: interest in other areas. AFL Gayle : OK, quiet for a minute, everyone, please. Oli has an important announcement : to make. :) AFA Bard : I like the SAMS series, Ragen. AFL Oli : Jim Carlisle (TIIE) and Dave Chesebrough (TAWE)will be in the AW Forum at 9:00 tonight AFL Oli : I hope you can join us! AFL Oli : (tanks!) AFL Gayle : Thanks, Oli. :) Jim was just here earlier telling us all about StoryWorks. :) AFA Bard : Sounds great, Oli! AFL Biblia: 'night all and to all a good night! AFA Bard : Night Leonard, thanks for coming! BCS Frank : Night, Leonard AFL Gayle : OK. We've got about 5 more minutes. Any last minute thoughts about how to spend your $20,000 bequest? BCS Frank : For each gs I'd buy lots of memory & 1/4 IWII. AFA Bard : How about some video overlay cards, VCR's and videodisc players? BCS Frank : That sounds goood too. RagenT : Ithink I'd be practical and get GS's, printers and a video disc player... BCS Frank : and an Apple scanner RagenT : so we can keep up with the Joneses. GuS Grafix: Touch screens and HyperStudio to use them with... (along with the video disk players already mentioned) I'd also Transwarp at least some of the GS's RagenT : and help to use it all effectively... AFL Gayle : Well, lots of great ideas here tonight. Our topic next week is The Annual AFA Bard : Transwarp.. yes! Throw in one of those HUGE Mitsubishi 40" TV's while you're at it, too. AFL Gayle : Debate on Computer Literacy. Don't forget our Adult Literacy Chat at 9:30 pm tomorrow night and our School-to-School Projects Chat on Wed. at 9:30. All right here in the AED Chat Room. Thanks for coming tonight. :) BCS Frank : They gonna do that every year? :) GuS Grafix: (also hard drives, low cost ones like Cutting Edge) Well, we are this year, Frank, because Wiggy had already put it on the schedule. :) AFA Bard : Thanks for joining us folks! BCS Frank : Nah, it's a fundamental question... does need airing every year. AFL Gayle : Well, I'm going to move along to AppleWorks to hear what Jim and Dave have to share. Thanks again for coming tonight. :) 9/17/90 9:03:07 PM Closing file.