12/17/90 8:05:15 PM Opening "chat.1216" for recording. LeeHayward AFL Gayle AFA Bard BABZ001 AFL Bobloo MFJpsy RagenT LavonneS Uptown gal Dave Mead AFA Bard : Hiya Bill.. just in time! Welcome! AFL Gayle : I'd like to welcome Lee Hayward from Cherry Creek Schools, Bob Marean from Binghamton Schools, and Bard Williams from Trickum Middle School. Our topic tonight is networking. You can read the Hot Shot at the top of your menu for details about the chats for the rest of the week in the Apple // Education Forum and the Mac Education Forum. Our topic tonight is networking. Bard and I will have our eyes open for the first person to say one of the secret words tonight. AFL Gayle : The first person to say a secret word will receive one hour of free online time. The winner will be announced at the end of the chat. Without further adieu, I'd like to let Lee start and tell us about his experiences with the Digicard Network. Welcome, Lee and thanks for coming! LeeHayward: I installed a Digicard network 3 years ago as a demo in our District. Major Educational Resources installed our lab of 15 //E's and remotely connected a classroom. We tried it for a year and then wired the rest of the building. Now there are 15 //e's in the lab, 18 // e's and 10 GS's in the building served by the file server. LeeHayward: We're running MECC, AppleWorks, Sunburst software, Logowriter, Etc. I'm no longer in the building, having gotten the job as the Elementary Computer Advisor last Feb. LeeHayward: We now have 4 Digicard networks installed in the district, 1 appleShare and an IBM . AFL Gayle : OK. Thanks, Lee. Bob, how about telling us about your experiences with the Apple network? AFL Bobloo: Sure, Gayle AFL Bobloo: I have seven elementary schools And two middle schools.. Each has a network of one type or another in it AFL Bobloo: We go from small ones with perhaps five //gs computers hooked up in a lab AFL Bobloo: to 20+ in a lab in a middle school. We have also wired a few building AFL Bobloo: up so that we have an access to the file servers in those buildings from any of the class rooms. AFL Bobloo: We use an SE/30 as our file server. We use AppleShare as our network software AFL Bobloo: We use Let's Share as our front end software. We use Phone Net cabling AFL Bobloo: and plain ole telephone wire to wire up the buildings AFL Bobloo: We use telephone jacks in each room so that all a teacher has to do is plug the phone line AFL Bobloo: in a socket in their wall and another end into a phone net connector in AFL Bobloo: the //gs and they are up and running on the network AFL Bobloo: We too use MECC software almost exclusivly on the network AFL Bobloo: As well as AppleWorks, Bank Street Writer, Super Print II AFL Bobloo: Cross Country USA, and a few other goodies, like PaintWorks AFL Bobloo: ga AFL Gayle : Bard, would you tell us about your experiences, please? AFA Bard : Sure... AFA Bard : Our district has 14 middle schools, each with a lab. Three are served by networks, the rest use printer servers such as the Queue System. (one printer and up to 4 computers). In my school, we've got IIgs's and Macs online together. Thirty IIgs's and 4 Macs connected through an AppleShare network. We've got a 4M SE/30 with an 80 meg hard drive as the server. We use AppleTalk cabling, but have an ethernet bridge to some IBM machines located in another part of the building. We use the Aristotle front end.. not by choice, but because we're a test site for Apple, and run pretty much the same software as Bob and Lee.. MECC, AppleWorks, some Sunburst stuff and a few other goodies. ga AFL Gayle : OK. Candy Colborn works at Cottonwood Creek Elementary School, in Lee's school district. She is going to help answer questions. Now I'll open the floor to anyone's questions. No protocol. Just ask away. :) LeeHayward: Hi Candy! LavonneS : We have a similar set up with Appleshare wired to each classroom using a GS. AFA Candy : Hi Lee! AFL Gayle : Great! Lavonne can help with questions, too, then. :) AFA Bard : What type of software, Lavonne? Uptown gal: Hi, I have a Corvus network in my lab with 24 Apple IIe's and every once in a while some MECC stuff freezes, ( and the kids cry) What causes that? LavonneS : We have similar setup with AppleShare and wired to GS in every classroom. Soon AFL Gayle : Gee, we've got experts all over the room! Great, Fran. :) AFL Bobloo: Some of the MECC software is, or atleast wasn't, as Network readyas they would have liked. LavonneS : getting Mac LC and they say will not be able to run network software with that LavonneS : Why not?? AFL Bobloo: They just sent out some new updates AFA Candy : I find the MECC stuff freezing now and then, too.But it did the same from disk. MFJpsy : This is all new to me, don't quite understand how "network" works....BASIC... RagenT : I am not an expert, at all when it comes to networking. LavonneS : Gee I echo!! AFL Bobloo: Lavonne. .. You will be able to run LC on network on second rendition of the card AFA Bard : The specs on the Double Exposure Card (the Mac LC's //e card) say that it's compatible with AppleShare and will access IIe software. The key is IIe NOT IIgs software. :( AFL Gayle : OK. Who wants to take MF's question? AFA Candy : Jpsy, the network is sort of like a hard drive for the school with dozen of compters being able to access it. Uptown gal: I heard that if you put the card in to run the Apple II stuff you couldn't network. AFL Bobloo: Very good description, Candy AFL Gayle : Thanks, Candy! Lee, could you tell MF a little bit about how the network is typically set up? MFJpsy : The advantage being economy of software purchases? RagenT : If you have many classrooms hooked up, do they all have to use the same applic AFA Candy : YES! RagenT : at the same time? AFA Candy : No, anyone can use anything anytime. LeeHayward: With the Digicard system, we have a file server the set up with the software. Uptown gal: The corvus is the file servr RagenT : Do they HAVE to go thru the network to use something? LeeHayward: Wires are then strung throughout the building, ending in "telephone" type connectors. The computer then plug into the network. Each computer can access the software and printers that are attached to the network. MFJpsy : What if a teacher wants particular software NOT on "server?" Can they still use their own? AFA Candy : Yes, Jpsy. Easy LavonneS : Ragen We just set the control panel one way for network another way for stand alone LeeHayward: Yes, most of the networks allow local booting of floppies Uptown gal: We just type DD and press return twice AFL Bobloo: We had an aid who discovered a really easy way MFJpsy : Thanks, Candy and Lee! AFA Candy : Easy with Digicard....just press escape to boot to disk AFL Bobloo: To boot off a floppy When set in the control panel RagenT : It must save on kids killing disks! RagenT : And teachers who leave disks out on the heat registers! Uptown gal: Did sunburst network Learning about Plants, Animals AFL Bobloo: Kids, and worse yet, Ragen...teachers...hehe Sherlock4 : I've got a qeustion??? LeeHayward: The network is great for the lab teacher. Copy one disk onto the network and AFL Gayle : Ask away, Ira. :) AFA Bard : Shoot, Sherlock! LeeHayward: it is instantly available for all computers. Sherlock4 : ok, if the math dept. uses corvus in 209, and I've got 3 -4 computers down the hall (approx. 1/4 mile) can we in soc.stud. "plug in" to the RagenT : Let's say I want to sell the school on a network, besides my apple IIe's what would I need. AFL Bobloo: That's a long hall...:) Sherlock4 : network without screwing up the math dept.? AFL Bobloo: You should be able to Ira Uptown gal: Do you roller skate in the halls AFL Bobloo: Should present no problem at all. We have mucho rooms all accessing the server at one time LeeHayward: For Digicard, you'd need network cards for each //e and different cards for the GS. Then you'd need the Shared Resource Controller and connecting wiring. MFJpsy : So you purchase something like this "Corvus," which is ? a program for networking PLUS the wiring? AFL Bobloo: Right. Uptown gal: Corvus is a hard disk drive which can hold approx. 400 programs AFL Bobloo: Corvus has their own means for sharing files MFJpsy : OK, beginning to get the picture! :) AFL Bobloo: Digicard has it's own way LeeHayward: The SRC is the hard disk "box". It can be 40, 80, 150, or 300 megs of storage. AFL Bobloo: And AppleShare is yet a third. Each has good points and bad AFL Gayle : Which leads to my question. Please elaborate on the goods and bads. :) Uptown gal: How fast do the others mentioned work the corvus takes about 2 long minutes for the lab AFA Bard : You may also need cards (for //e) and connectors along with SERVER and cabling, MF. Sherlock4 : which are? Bobloo AFL Bobloo: I was impressed by the speed of digicard... AFA Candy : One favorite factor of mine is the ease of putting things up on the SRC. AFL Bobloo: But I was NOT impressed by the cost of digicard AFA Candy : It's literally easier than my hard drive with ProSel. RagenT : Which do you prefer, experts? AFL Gayle : Why would we choose Digicard over AppleShare over Corvus or vice versa? AFL Bobloo: For a smaller school network LeeHayward: Digicard boots in 10 seconds from turn-on to menu on computers. AFL Bobloo: A benefit of Digicard also is that you can run DOS 3.3 software on it, Which you can't do on AppleShare AFA Candy : I have had no trouble getting help from the Digicard rep when I needed it. LeeHayward: I've found the Digicard system VERY easy to use and understand. We have 4 AFA Candy : Shared Resource Controller AFL Gayle : Thanks. :) LeeHayward: schools up and running right now with a minimum of trouble. AFL Bobloo: (SHR = file server in Digicard lingo...hehe) AFA Bard : How about the issue of software compatabilty.. any problems encountered out there? LavonneS : Hows Digicard cost compared to Appleshare? AFL Bobloo: How have you balanced the cost of Digicard, Lee? AFA Bard : Lee? Uptown gal: Will any Broderbund programs be networked? AFL Bobloo: I've not figured out how to justify the $$ AFA Bard : AppleShare is included in the price of the SE/30 bundle... hold for most recent cost. AFA Candy : The two big factors are future software costs, and, the real biggee, getting RagenT : Do the regular classroom teachers catch on easily on how to use Digicard etc? AFA Candy : teachers willing to use the computer. LeeHayward: The digicard network costs a little more up front. But I think it is worth the AFL Gayle : Can you give us some ballpark figures of cost, Lee? LeeHayward: cost. We have 150megs with a tape backup running our school. To do that much AFL Bobloo: ($69 for card in //gs, 169 or so for card in //e for digicard) LeeHayward: with AppleTalk would cost more, but most don't have that big of a system. MFJpsy : I would think teachers more willing to use network than trying to manage a million floppies in their rooms! AFA Bard : AppleShare System comes in many configs. Price depends on your district's buying agreement and the type of server. Configs. range from $3,800 to $6,000) (List as of 12/15) LeeHayward: The SRC (150 meg with tape backup) is about $7000 Sherlock4 : I think you are right Jpsy AFL Bobloo: The cost of digicard includes the phone net type connector for each machine AFA Candy : Also, when I have shown kids in the lab how to use the network, they go back and show the teachers even before I can. AFL Bobloo: Course you do have to buy AppleShare, and a front end software to act as your menuing system LavonneS : Candy, when the kids can lead the way do the teachers follow OK? AFL Gayle : How about the Corvus? What is the cost for that system? AFA Bard : $3801.00 with SE/30 4M HD 80 - includes connectors, AShare, Aristotle. AFA Candy : Yes, there has been great enthusiasm. Sherlock4 : I think the most certainly do lavonne AFA Candy : I almost did handsprings when the most computer-phobic teacher in the school asked when she could have a computer in her room. AFL Bobloo: Ah...gotcha, Bard... that's quite a config. Much more than I have ever used... Uptown gal: 12,000 to set up 24 apples AFA Bard : Aristotle front end is $139.00 when bought alone. AFA Bard : Me too, Bob. That's what Apple pushing on Ed. Price list now. :))) AFL Bobloo: I've used an SE/30 with only a 40 meg drive, and with 1 meg of memory AFL Bobloo: Though a second meg would be nice AFA Bard : 1 Meg, Bob? How many devices connected? AFL Bobloo: Most I have is about 22, Bard AFA Bard : Aha! We went to 4M on the server when we needed to connect 35. LeeHayward: Digicard servers will support up to 96 computers at one time. AFA Bard : Welcome Ray! Our topic is NETWORKS. AFL Bobloo: That is where the real saving comes in, Lee... AFL Bobloo: AppleShare and a Mac can handle up to 50 machines AFA Bard : 96!! Wow! AShare, theoretically, has no limit.. however, performance does degrade the more machines RagenT : I don't know, only 2 were ok...the rest were file names, I think. AFL Bobloo: When the server has minimum of 2 meg Sherlock4 : Goodnight guys, got to finish off my mid-year exam. LeeHayward: That number includes Apple //e, GS, Mac and IBM AFA Bard : you add. I've seen a school here in Atlanta with 83 machines. AppleWorks still takes only a few AFL Bobloo: Thenyou need to have some sort of bridge, I believe AFA Bard : seconds to load. :) Saving, though, is a FAR different matter! :( AFL Bobloo: WOW!! You have 83???? On AppleShare????? AFL Bobloo: ::making note to get more memory for my file server:: AFA Bard : Not me... a private school in Atlanta.. I WISH I had 83!! :))) AFL Bobloo: hehe..I'll bet. MFJpsy : Another Q: This "server" is just a regular computer, can serve IBM or Apple MFJpsy : at once? AFL Bobloo: We have an I*M network going into one elem school as part of joint study now, and will have over 100 LavonneS : What is the size of the private school -- ratio of computers to population served? AFL Bobloo: machines ...5 in each class room LeeHayward: Yes, the server has areas for each computer type. AFA Bard : That's a tricky question, MF. While the server can be "partitioned" for different operating systems, sometimes the applications are limited. The main difference in the Apple network currently is the AFA Bard : fact that your server must be DEDICATED (that is, it can only be online as a server and not used AFA Bard : as something else while on network.) System 7 (due out in March) will permit limited use of the AFA Bard : server while online. MFJpsy : Tricky answer, too! :O AFA Bard : Did it make ANY sense? (weekend-lag!) AFL Bobloo: But a good one, Bard AFL Bobloo: I do believe that an IBM can store files on an AppleShare network MFJpsy : Yes, some, considering my limited background knowledge! :) AFL Bobloo: But can it run programs off it? AFA Bard : :) thanks... BOB can you say something about compatility of software?? AFL Bobloo: Compatability of which kinds of software, Bard? AFL Bobloo: Software that runs on an AppleShare network must be AppleShare aware AFL Bobloo: Basically that means that it can use the quit command AFL Bobloo: And take you back to a menuing program of some type AFL Bobloo: Dos 3.3 software will NOT run on an AppleShare network AFL Bobloo: Only ProDOS applications can work on AppleShare LeeHayward: I don't know whether or not I should share this, but here it is. MECC charges LavonneS : Does anybody know if HyperStudio can be networked on AppleShare? AFL Gayle : But it will run on a DigiCard network (DOS 3.3), won't it? LeeHayward: a separate fee for "Network" versions of GS software. However, if you copy the AFL Bobloo: yes, Gayle AFL Gayle : What about Corvus, Bob? LeeHayward: "Product info" file from a network version to anyother GS MECC program, they AFL Bobloo: I believe so...don't know for sure on that one LeeHayward: will work on the network! AFA Bard : yes, Lavonne - but you've got to have the network version and it's kind of slow. :) AFL Bobloo: the Product info file that is in a MECC folder on the server, Lee? LeeHayward: I had a long talk with MECC about pricing and networks with MECC at MECC. AFL Bobloo: Or the Product Info file from a GS Network program? AFL Bobloo: hehehe..you have too, huh?? Met with as little success as I? :) LeeHayward: The Product Info file is one of the files on the disk, like Mercury, copied to the network AFL Bobloo: Ok. I'll try that out. I have network versions of GeoGraph LeeHayward: I think MECC will be restructuring they're membership pricing to reflect AFL Bobloo: But couldn't get Mercury up and running...though supposedly I have a network version...sigh LeeHayward: networking and the crossloader. AFA Bard : Really Bob? How do you like it? How about speed on Geograph?? AFA Bard : Mercury DIED on our network, too. :( AFL Bobloo: Not bad, Bard. LeeHayward: I have Mercury, Designer Prints and Puzzles and Storybook weaver all running on AFL Bobloo: I've got GS/OS 5.3 running on the network...and GeoGraph is nice LeeHayward: Digicard networks Uptown gal: What grade is Geograph targeted to? LeeHayward: Also USA and World Geograph AFL Bobloo: 5 and up, I would say, Fran Uptown gal: Thank you AFL Bobloo: Actually 5 might be a bit low AFL Bobloo: But you could use some of the maps and info LeeHayward: I've also used the Crossloader to load all MECC software to my Vulcan powered AFL Bobloo: Without going whole hog on the data in the program LeeHayward: GS to take with me to sites for demos. AFL Gayle : OK. It's time to announce the winners of our free hours. :) LavonneS won an RagenT : Are there programs that you cannot put on the network? Because of copyrights.. AFL Bobloo: WTG, Lavonne! AFL Bobloo: Lots of them, Ragen AFL Gayle : hour for saying AppleShare. Uptown Gal won for saying Corvus, and MFJpsy wond Uptown gal: WTG, Lavonne AFL Gayle : an hour for BASIC. Congratulations! AFC Tooter asked me to remind you about the AFL Bobloo: And lots of programs you can't put on cause they want an arm and a leg for the network version MFJpsy : Well, thanks! :) LavonneS : Wow Thanks I love it :)!!! LeeHayward: You should have a network version of software. AFA Bard : ()()()()()()()()()() Jpsy, Gal & Lavonne!!! Free hours! AFL Gayle : chat about ScrapBook on Wed. at 9:30 pm, right here in this room. Also, check RagenT : Congratulations, Lavonne, Uptown Gal and MFJpsy! Uptown gal: Thank you, Now I can go to Bloomingdales and go on line!!!!!!!! AFL Bobloo: (MECC wants 12000 for their MECC Management Master... can you believe it????? AFA Bard : Agreed Bobalooo.. arm, leg and other parts. :) Network stuff is TOO expensive! AFL Bobloo: LOL, Fran AFL Gayle : the message board in The Education Connection. Next week there will be NO MFJpsy : Meet you there, Uptown! :) AFL Gayle : chat in AED on Sunday. Have a happy holiday and rejoin us on Dec. 30 for an LeeHayward: MECC only charging 7500 for MMM here in Colorado, i think Uptown gal: Alright!!!!! AFA Bard : Merry Christmas folks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! See you online!!!!! AFA Candy : Lee, is that what's up at Homestead? I need to go see that in operation. AFA Bard : Thanks Lee and Bob for joining us in AED (you too Candy, Lavonne, et al!) :)) Uptown gal: Could we discuss curriculum connections sometime? AFA Bard : Oooo... great subject Gal.. are you thinking about interdisciplinary? AFA Candy : Last meeting someone was talking about a curriculum management system via the network. LeeHayward: Homestead? They have CNS installed on Digicard AFL Gayle : Certainly, Fran. What specifically do you mean? Uptown gal: That is my primary focus. Let's talk sometime, but not tonight because I don't want to whine too much LeeHayward: They are "piloting" CNS's management system. It manages 3rd party software. AFA Bard : CNS stands for? Uptown gal: CNS is who install our Network LeeHayward: And keeps records of what progress students have. Uptown gal: Computer Networking systems LeeHayward: CNS is Computer Network Specialists. They modify 3rd party software so it is AFA Bard : aha! It's an integrated learning system like Josten's?? LeeHayward: managed. Not exactly like Jostens, but in the neighborhood. LavonneS : Could we discuss integrated learning systems available sometime? AFA Candy : It's the student record keeping I want to learn about. AFA Bard : Good future topics.. are you taking notes, Gayle?? AFL Gayle : Sure! Getting my chat topics for March right now. :) AFL Bobloo: Frankly...our kids don't get on the network often enough to really make use of the management AFL Gayle : What is MMM, Lee? Price? AFA Bard : But will MMM manage other vendor's software? AFL Bobloo: With a half an hour a week, to maybe an hour a week...we hope they are beyond where they were AFL Bobloo: When last they were on the computer LeeHayward: MMM is about $7500 here in Colorado - won't manage anyone else's software. AFL Bobloo: Management only makes sense to me when you know the kids will AFL Bobloo: be on the computer every day for so much time LavonneS : Good point Bob, what computer ratio do we need to give enough access time? AFL Bobloo: And that they will only do one subject area... AFA Bard : I encourage all of you to read the "thought provoking" article uploaded by AFA Candy just released AFA Bard : that bashes the "lab" concept... certainly food for thought!!! (See NEW FILES library!) AFA Candy : On the other hand, the prospect of a good management system may support AFA Bard : (Thanks Candy.. for uploading that chunk of controversy!) :))) Uptown gal: Why do I feel that management systems are electronic ditto sheets? AFA Candy : the purchase f more computers either through district or grant funds. LavonneS : We've decided to set goal of 5 per classroom instead of labs AFA Candy : Sure, Bard. I think that will be in every teacher computer class soon. AFA Bard : You have ROOM Lavonne? AFL Bobloo: Though there is still a place for a lab. AFA Bard : Should be, Candy. I agree. AFL Bobloo: There are some things that can't be done with 5 computers in a room AFL Bobloo: that you could do in a lab setting AFL Bobloo: Like teaching keyboarding LeeHayward: I've got to go eat dinner now. Enjoyed it. I'd like to do it again sometime. AFA Bard : Remember that a computer is just a tool.. it can be misused. There are effective labs just like there AFA Bard : are effective users of computers in classrooms. :) Uptown gal: Or work on a writing project that you want published as a class LavonneS : We don't have room for a lab. Building more schools and additions going up AFL Bobloo: Correct on both points, Bard and Fran AFA Candy : Gotta go....g'night all. AFL Gayle : Good night, Candy! Thanks for coming. :) BernieB : Plans at my school call for networking the entire school for computer, video and voice capabilities. AFL Bobloo: Well...I need to roam as well AFA Bard : Well.. I'm going to beam back into reality now.. it was GREAT to see you folks! Have a great week - MFJpsy : Night, and thanks again, all! :) AFL Bobloo: This was fun... AFA Bard : and if I don't see you HAPPY HOLIDAYS! 12/17/90 9:11:34 PM Closing file.