6/14/92 7:59:33 PM Opening "Chat Log 6/14/92" for recording. AFL Gayle : WIN A FREE HOUR! Discuss Technology Planning in the Education Conference now! AFL Gayle : Keyword: AED AFA Bard : Gayle... does your school have a technology plan for next year? AFL Gayle : Who, me? We don't have anybody to plan for technology, much less pay for it, AFC Tooter : I just told all here, Andy, just gave my last grade. Tomorrow is the last day and all ends at noon. AFA Andy : Shelby CO has a 8.6 million dollar plan that will not be done anytime in the AFA Andy : forseeable future. :( AFL Gayle : What is included in their plan, Andy? AFA Andy : Great, Toot! Congtras. AFC Tooter : Congtras? Hmmm. AFA Andy : Gayle, they are throwing out Apple products and going strickly IBM. AFL Gayle : Hi, Dub RunR! :) AFA Andy : Yes, Toot, it's been a long one. :/ AFA Bard : Welcome Dub! AFA Bard : Not for long, Andy. I've heard from your AESC that that decision may not yet be final. Dub RunR : This is my first one, so be gentle! AFA Andy : All computers will be hooked up through modems to a school BBS. AFA Bard : :) Dub :) AFL Gayle : Oh, we LOVE first timers, Dub! Welcome! :)) AFA Andy : Bard, are you talking State or local? AFC Tooter : Where is Coatesville? AFA Bard : State, Andy. Dunno about local. Where will the plan begin? Labs? Classroom computers? AFA Andy : This is a local plane, the State was not invited to contribute. AFA Andy : Classroom Computers Bard. Dub RunR : In our S.D. we have ADM. and H.S. Business on IBM, Elem is starting to get MAC AFL Gayle : Are you a teacher, Dub? AFA Andy : They believe that there should be no labs. Dub RunR : LC and everyone else gets old IIe AFA Bard : How large is your S.D., Dub? AFC Tooter : That's what we have, old IIe's. Where is Coatesville, Dub? AFA Andy : These are the same people that I told if they would find me a teaching job, Dub RunR : Yes, Industrial Arts/ Practical Arts/ Technology Education AFL Gayle : We have old IIe's in our lab. Work fine. :) AFA Andy : that I would train all their teachers to use the computers for free, on my own AFA Andy : timew. :/ Dub RunR : Coatesville is in S.E. PA AFA Bard : How large is your S.D., Dub? AFA Bard : Welcome VAXer! AFA Andy : Hi VaXer!! AFC Tooter : Oh, I went to college on the other side of the state. The VAXer : Hi ya Bard ... evening all ... :D AFA Bard : [[ Ragen! ]] Dub RunR : About 6000 students, 450 Teachers AFA Andy : Hiya Ragen :) RagenT : Hi everybody:) AFA Bard : Hmmm... What progress are you making with technology in Industrial Arts, Dub? AFC Tooter : [[[[Ragen]]]] AFL Gayle : Hi, Vax and Ragen! :) The VAXer : Hi ya Gayle ... :D Dub RunR : Slow, "old timers" want to keep manual arts AFC Tooter : Hi Vax. Are you a teacher? AFA Bard : Dub-- any success with CAD? AFL Gayle : So, Ragen, is school all over for the year yet? The VAXer : Nope, Tooter ... is this for teachers only??? AFL Gayle : Heavens, no, Vax! ALL are welcome! :)) AFC Tooter : Not at all, Vax. Just asking. The VAXer : What is this forum about, BTW ... (I just kinda 'stumbled' in here) Dub RunR : We've tried CADDRAW by Kitchen Sink, but again, too many in our Dept. are set AFC Tooter : I don't know too many teachers from Florida. Searching. Dub RunR : with the old ways. RagenT : Are you kidding, still have a week and a day. AFL Gayle : Apple // Education, specifically, Vax. AFL Gayle : Six days? That's barbaric! ;) AFC Tooter : I'm done, I'm done, I'm done, Ragen :-))))))))) AFL Gayle : Not until noon, he isn't, Ragen! ;) AFC Tooter : Hush-up, Gayle :-) The VAXer : Apple // Education??? AFL Gayle : Right, VAX. :) The VAXer : <-- kinda lost on that one ... :/ AFL Gayle : No problem. :) You're welcome to stay. :) The VAXer : Ohhh ... sorry ... AFA Bard : LOL! VAXer. Ragen... does your school or system have a technology plan? RagenT : Tooter, I'm done with students, just computer work now. Helping out the system The VAXer : ... this forum is for teaching people to use the Apple // ... !!! RagenT : wearing my computer hat. RagenT : Good question, Bard. There is a vague plan, but nothing in writing. AFC Tooter : Tonuight the topic is technology planning, Vax. At least I think that's the topic. AFL Gayle : Right, Tooter. AFA Bard : How about staff development, Ragen? AFA Bard : (We're trying, Tooter. :D) AFC Tooter : That's a lot clearer than we have, Ragen. AFL Gayle : Vax, this forum deals with educators who use the Apple //, but many of our RagenT : None now, long time ago there was, but when the money was cut, so were AFL Gayle : users use other computers, too. :) RagenT : Midge and I. Funny thing, RagenT : with an emergency fund grant AFA Bard : Hiya Marty! AFA Andy : Hey MartMan :D RagenT : the Junior high school bought 10 Mac lc's AFL Marty : hi AFC Tooter : And often visitors come in who are just interested in education. AFA Bard : Ragen.. are they using them for interdisciplinary? writing? The VAXer : Ohhh ... well, I'm not a teacher and I use a PC, so ... g'night ... :D RagenT : and guess who set everything up, Midge and I, because no one knew anyhing RagenT : about them. AFC Tooter : Hi Marty. When are you finished for the year? AFA Bard : C Ya, Vaxer. RagenT : Not now. AFL Marty : 3 more days RagenT : The teachers when surveyed what they feel they need the most in terms of AFA Andy : :) AFC Tooter : Whip and chain time :-) Dub RunR : Our school ended last Weds. RagenT : technology, was: TRAINING. AFL Marty : Yeah... tell me about it.:) AFA Bard : We're seeing that too, Ragen. I've been stomping around the state doing presentations about the AFA Andy : That's why computers that schools have now aren't used. :/ AFA Bard : importance of training for the use of technology. AFA Bard : I agree, Andy. What's the answer? A computer in every teacher's home??? AFC Tooter : I start giving workshops to teachers in another week and a half. AFL Gayle : Bard, stomping?! Gee, I'd like to see that. ;) AFL Marty : ! AFA Andy : That would help Bard! AFC Tooter : Definitely, Bard. AFL Gayle : Go, Marty! No protocol here. :) AFA Andy : But, they do need to learn how to do use it!! RagenT : I have just been accepted in a Science Foundation grant workshop called AFA Bard : Go Marty. AFA Andy : Many people wouldn't use it even at home. :/ AFL Marty : I think part of the problem is that in doing workshops you're really AFL Marty : preaching to the choir. AFA Andy : Not my workshops :D Dub RunR : I find teachers are intimadated by workshops. They have been viewed by themselv AFL Marty : The folks who need to be convinced that training is worth more than just AFL Gayle : Or in workshops, you have people dragged, kicking and screaming, determined not AFL Gayle : to learn. AFL Marty : lip service are principals, superintendents, and boards of education. AFL Marty : (imho) AFA Andy : The first thing I do is have all the folks stand up and hug that computer. ;) AFC Tooter : Ours have been very successful. That's why the board of ed stopped them for two years AFL Gayle : Good point, Marty. Dub RunR : as experts in their fields for many years, now we ask them to become the stude AFL Gayle : Hug it, Andy? Are you sure they won't knock it over? ;) Dub RunR : nt again, a stepping on their self esteem of sorts AFA Andy : If the super and principal are like that you can give it up. :( AFA Bard : Agreed, Marty. Here, too, Tooter. The board's complaining that everyone wants one now. :) AFA Andy : Nope, Gayle. I try to get them to see the computer as their friend. AFC Tooter : I find most of our teachers want to learn. They just aren't given enough time or direction. AFL Gayle : Figures, TooT. :( AFC Tooter : Good training requires a computer coord to follow up and bring things into AFC Tooter : the class. AFA Bard : But think about it, Tooter. Were YOU "given" time- or did you have the motivation and curiousity to AFA Bard : make time to learn? AFA Andy : I try to show them how computer can help them do their job better. AFL Gayle : Does your school system have a technology plan, TooT? Dub RunR : I offered a full semester worth of work on computers broken down so that each c AFC Tooter : Yes, Bard, but you can't exp[ect every teacher to turn into an addict. AFC Tooter : Nor would i wantthat. AFL Marty : That's my point Bard. Teachers should either be given time to receive training AFA Andy : That's the key Bard, teachers will have to be self motivated. Dub RunR : could be taken as an individual work session. I had an overwhelming response on AFL Gayle : Welcome, Lavonne! :) AFA Andy : Lavonne {{{}}} LTNS :) AFL Marty : or use their own time but in exchange receive CEU credit. AFC Tooter : No, Gayle. Only the Writing Center initiative which motivates computer use. AFA Bard : [[ Lavonne! ]] Dub RunR : paper, and underwhelming response in the classes. Maybe it was me !!! AFA Andy : I have teachers here begging me to come and do workshops all the time. AFL Marty : What do they offer to pay you, Andy? LavonneS : Took me 15 minutes to get logged on tonight, must be a busy time for AOL AFC Tooter : The best computer workshops give teachers a tool they can use easily. Once the yhave a use AFC Tooter : for the computer, many (most) will carry it forward on theri opwn. AFA Andy : Marty, I have to do it free of charge. The schools have no money for that. :/ AFA Bard : Dub.. what was the theme of the workshop? AFL Marty : I thought that would be the answer, Andy. AFA Andy : Yeah, I know :) AFL Marty : I used to do workshops for free, too. AFC Tooter : I guess I should be grateful. The school is paying me $150 per day plus planning time. Dub RunR : I started with basic boot up then on to "play time to ease the computer pain LavonneS : We have a plan where both inservice workshop deliverers and participants get LavonneS : $23/hr Dub RunR : next I went to Appleworks in three different sections, WP, DB, and SS. The en AFA Andy : I wish they would do that here. :/ AFC Tooter : That's what we used to do, Lavonne, but now the board has decided to just give CEUs to the teachers. AFC Tooter : Trainers still get payed. AFA Bard : Dub.. a GREAT strategy to help them get comfortable! Dub RunR : The end result was to familiarize the staff with some of our resoyrces. AFL Marty : CEU credit is a good idea. AFA Andy : It is Marty. AFC Tooter : If teachers want the CEUs. Most have all they need. AFL Marty : Training workshops are certainly appropriate for a CEU activity. AFL Marty : That's not the case everywhere, Toot. AFC Tooter : Definitely. AFL Gayle : The teachers who need CEU credit aren't the ones who will sign up for the AFL Gayle : workshops, usually, though. LavonneS : That is the problem we have, most have all they need, so they still give a LavonneS : choice, credit or pay. Dub RunR : Training workshops are only appropriate when the workshop is started on equipme AFL Marty : That's partly a flaw with the law though, Toot. CEU credits beyond the 90 AFL Marty : hours can't be carried over into the next 5 year certification period. AFA Bard : So what's the answer? Release time, CEU credits, money? I think the REAL problem is lack of follow AFA Bard : up for staff development courses. They're usually what I call "seagull" staff development...:) Dub RunR : nt at the facility or similiar to the base school equipment AFA Andy : I think the BIG problem is a lot of teachers are just not motivated to do any- AFA Andy : thing extra. :/ AFC Tooter : How long does your district run thewm, Bard. Ours have been one week, 3 hours per day during summer. Dub RunR : I went to a county wide workshop where APPLE and others presented " the way we AFL Marty : Gee Bard... if I had the answer I'd be retired by now. :) AFC Tooter : That's enough time to get everybody comfortable with AW word processor. RagenT : Andy, many are afraid to take on anymore. AFA Bard : Our sessions are generally a week with three "follow up" sessions distributed throughout the AFA Bard : year. RagenT : Especially, when they are working without a contract and over30 students. AFA Bard : Wouldn't we all, Marty. Dub RunR : are" and had about $12,000 worth of hardware, to be used in each classroom. BE AFA Andy : Lots are just burned out, too. Dub RunR : BE REAL APPLE!!!!! AFL Marty : I can't blame them Ragen. AFA Bard : LOL, Jerry. It IS really hard to follow up a multimedia extravaganza with a Print Shop workshop.:) AFA Andy : True Bard :D AFL Gayle : So what do you highlight in your workshops, Andy, after they've hugged the AFL Gayle : computer? AFA Bard : How much of your local hardware is purchased through PTA/PTO money? Anyone? AFA Bard : PEST! Welcome back! AFL Marty : Speaking only for myself, I think I'd prefer to have time made available Dub RunR : Educating a district staff must start with educating the School Board members, AFL Gayle : Hiya, Vernon! :) You've only missed 1/2 of the chat this time. :) AFL Marty : than to be offered money to take workshops on my own time. AFA Andy : It depends Gayle, I do stuff from Mutilmedia to DTP. Pest II : <--- finally getting the hang of this AFA Bard : I agree, Marty. AFL Marty : Time is worth more than $ to me right now. Dub RunR : then convincing the Supt. that the idea of technology will make him look good Pest II : (am late because I've been working on modifying some NDA code) Dub RunR : because it was basically his idea!! AFC Tooter : During the school year, definitely, Marty, but during the summer, I'm glad for the extra cash. AFA Bard : Top down works some places, Dub. But we've found that a well-organizes grass-roots effort can be AFA Bard : very powerful too. AFL Marty : (I'm loafing this summer :) Pest II : It's so he can play around with some new fonts I hear :-) AFA Bard : When a neighboring school district announced they were buying IBMs for labs, the teachers stormed a AFL Marty : Ack! Bite your tongue! Dub RunR : The NEED must be there for grass roots to hold. AFA Bard : school board meeting with charts and graphs explaining how they wanted Macs. Guess who won. :) AFL Gayle : That's not loafing, Vernon! Marty's WORKING when he plays with fonts. :) AFL Gayle : (So what does your NDA do, Vernon?) Pest II : yes, but why waste time on something you don't need Dub? RagenT : Funny you say that, our science teachers turned down their macs, because RagenT : they weren't asked and wanted IBM's. AFL Marty : (I'd have lobbied for PC clones) Pest II : (nothing yet Gayle... it's my first time fiddling with an NDA) AFC Tooter : That's a switch, Ragen. RagenT : The language teachers were pleased to inherit the science MACS. Dub RunR : By need I mean that those who won't willingly buy into technology should realiz Pest II : they're cheaper Marty...so I'd have to agree AFL Gayle : They wanted IBMs? First time I've heard teachers want an IBM over a Mac! RagenT : You don't know our science teachers. During the workshop to teach them Dub RunR : the y are falling behind LavonneS : Ragen, what were the science teachers doing that they preferred IBM? AFA Bard : Really, Ragen? We purchased 20 Macs for science in our district. We're using Accu-LAB probeware. RagenT : how to turn on the MAC, the teacher said that she didn't want any body AFL Marty : I'd take an IBM over a Mac. RagenT : there that didn't want to be there and the science teachers walked out. AFL Marty : (that makes two times in one day, Gayle :) AFA Bard : Marty! Byte your tongue. :) AFL Gayle : Uh oh! That Big Blue is wearing off on Marty. ;) Pest II : I'm a self-proclaimed artist so I'd have to take a mac over an IBM AFC Tooter : They sound like a charming bunch, Ragen. RagenT : They saw some science software demonstrated on IBMs and didnt' want anything RagenT : but. AFL Marty : After what Apple did with the II it would take a court order to get me to AFL Marty : own a Mac. Pest II : after all I can't use an IBM as a slave to my IIGS! AFA Andy : No, it's that Apple leaves a bad taste in his mouth. ;) AFA Bard : Must've been PSL, Ragen. The demo they did here was immediately followed by a Mac demo that blew it AFA Bard : away. AFL Gayle : Court order? Interesting thought... ;) AFL Marty : brb Pest II : Should we issue one Gayle :-) RagenT : Most software now can be purchase for either machine, am I correct? AFL Gayle : Not I, Vernon! AFA Bard : SOME software, Ragen. Still not all. AFL Gayle : Some, Ragen, but I've seen more that teachers wanted that was available on Mac AFL Gayle : and not IBM. RagenT : So for science, which machine do you think is better for the sciences? AFL Gayle : However, to be fair, it does work the other way, too, particularly for AFL Gayle : administrative types of work. Pest II : it's mre the software than the machines I hear AFA Andy : The tech folks here say they can't find any software for ed. on A2 or Mac. AFL Gayle : The Apple //, Ragen. ;) AFA Bard : Our science folks really liked the science software. That's what's important, I think. AFA Andy : That's why they say they are going with IBM. RagenT : I think the children should be exposed to both systems...I am strictly Apple AFA Bard : Andy... they also eat lunch with IBM every Wednesday. :)) AFA Andy : I believe you Bard :) RagenT : and feel a little embarrassed when I, the expert, am ignorant of MSDos ways. RagenT : I will learn this summer though. Pest II : they must not be looking very hard...isn't there a thick guide to Apple AFL Gayle : Oh, don't ruin your summer that way, Ragen! ;) Pest II : (Apple II and Mac) software published ny someone AFA Bard : I have to admit, I feel more strongly about Apple now that I've had the opportunity to use an IBM RagenT : I have a wonderful 6 grad credit work shop to attend this summer! Pest II : opportunity? AFA Bard : on a daily basis. Even with the model 80 that sits next to my Mac at work- running Windows and OS/2, AFA Bard : there's still no comparison. :) RagenT : (bursting at the seams to share) AFL Gayle : Tell us about it, Ragen! No need to burst. :) AFA Andy : WB Marty :) Pest II : 'running?' more like 'walking OS/2' no? AFL Marty : re Pest II : hi Mart AFA Bard : LOL! Right, Pest. Crawling. RagenT : National Science Foundation grant called Project SWIMS...takes 60 teachers RagenT : and first we do a 4 day workshop and then go on a boat for 4 days to AFL Gayle : Marty, whle you were gone, Vernon ran off and picked up a court order he want AFL Gayle : wants to present to you. ;) AFL Gayle : whle=while RagenT : study whales and collect data. Then we make computer models, connecting Pest II : heh heh Gayle AFL Marty : Looks like I get to practice civil disobedience. :) RagenT : science and math to take back to share with our classroom teachers. AFL Gayle : LOL, Marty! :) AFC Tooter : Wow! Sounds incredible. They pay you to go on a whale watch!!!! Pest II : Macintosh, Why 1992 will be like 1984 LavonneS : Wow, Ragen, sounds like a working vacation Dakmanz : I need help RagenT : 60 dollars a day:) AFL Gayle : And you use IBMs to do it, Ragen? AFL Gayle : Yes, Dak? How may we help you? Pest II : how can we help? Dakmanz : Where do you go to get local BBS #'s? RagenT : I don't know. In between I will be dates, I'll be in Syracuse using an IBM RagenT : clone to archive Syracuse china's collection and tiles in America. AFL Gayle : Try keyword ACM, Dak. I think that forum maintains a BBS listing. Pest II : There used to be a database under keyword 'BBS' RagenT : I have found that the Apple IIe has had a great collection of educational Dub RunR : Someone mentioned grassroots involvemnent earlier, how did it begin? RagenT : software..Has the MAC been able to keep up? At an affordable price? Pest II : yep... both of these work Dakmanz : Where in BBS are the local #'s? I've looked all over? Pest II : BBS information AFA Bard : Dub... that's where the PLANS came in. We challenged each of our 61 schools to come up with Dakmanz : Where is that? AFL Gayle : They're arranged by state, I think, Dak. AFA Bard : a technology plan -- based on surveys and a collaborative effort. This brought all the folks Pest II : in the ACM forum Pest II : They are Gayle AFA Bard : together with a PLAN. There were MANY commanlities in the plans. The plans spread like wildfire. I AFA Andy : Hi Prf Paul :) AFA Bard : took the summary of the plans to the board and voila! Grass roots effort! Pest II : what's a Prf? Pest II : brb Prf Paul : Hi. AFC Tooter : Sounds great, Bard. Can you share some of those plans online? AFA Bard : Hiya CodeBender. Dub RunR : Bard , What is the general makeup of your board? Dakmanz : All I find under keyword "BBS" is the telecomm stuff. You can get BBS programms but I can't find the AFC Tooter : Prf Paul, Do you know Grindstaff? AFL Gayle : Short for professor, Vernon. Pest II : ahh AFL Gayle : Welcome, Paul and Code! :) AFA Bard : Dub... they're elected. Mostly business people. Is that what you mean? RagenT : Interesting idea, Bard. how did the schools create their plans? by surveying Dakmanz : If anyone can help I will be very greatful. RagenT : teachers, or appointing boards? Pest II : Dak...I just checked for you. The America Online BBS Zoo is there Dakmanz : How do I get there? AFA Bard : Ragen... each school surveyed teachers, staff, community (mostly PTA) and students. They asked Dub RunR : Our board is mostly blue collar and very sensitive to a no spend policy includi Pest II : do you know how to use Keywords Dak? AFL Gayle : Hmmm, what kind of computer are you using online, Dak? Sometimes the keywords AFA Bard : pretty generic questions like "how important is it for students to be able to apply computer AFL Gayle : know which computer you're using. It may be sending him to a different place, AFL Gayle : Vernon. Dakmanz : yes, what do I put in? AFA Bard : technology to solve problems"... etc. Then the results were brought forth to a local committee with Dub RunR : ng new equipment. We still have Commadore PET in most of our libraries AFA Bard : representatives from across the school- PE, special ed., media, all grade levels. These committees Pest II : if you're using an Apple II computer try ACM AFA Andy : Hey Steve :) AFA Bard : then drafted a plan for each school. AFA Bard : Welcome Steve! AFL Gayle : PETs in the libraries??!! Ack! Dakmanz : I'm on an IBM. Pest II : ven if you aren't it's worth a try AFC SteveB : Hello Andy, Bard, Everyone! AFA Bard : Welcome MoBob! Pest II : let's try it anyway (if you haven't already) AFA Andy : I need to go crank up the air in ABF. See you all next week! Thanks Bard ;) RagenT : I will pass that on to our acting curriculum coordinator, Bard. Pest II : you should be able to choose BBS Informaiton from a menu in the ACM forum Dub RunR : For five elem. schools the board has committed to 4 LCs for next year AFL Gayle : Use keyword ACM. Then look for the BBS Zoo, Dak. Pest II : from there choose the 'BBS Zoo' AFA Bard : Ragen.. I'd be glad to chat with him/her, if you think it might help? Pest II : then you should be able to find BBS linsting by state Pest II : try it and come back here if you have any problems RagenT : He's very cooperative and interested..he's writing a grant now for teacher RagenT : technology training. Pest II : (I can almost touchtype on this thing AFC SteveB : <-- Been cramming for a *@#! Spanish final all evening. AFL Marty : Ole. AFA Bard : Si, Steve! AFL Gayle : Which software are you using on the IBM, Dak? Promenade, PC-Link or AOL PC? RagenT : He pooled ideas from a few teachers from each school to see how they would Pest II : como fue? RagenT : like to spend the money. AFL Marty : Hasta la vista, baby. AFA Bard : ROTFL, Marty. AFC SteveB : (And no Spanish cracks!) AFC SteveB : I'm talkin' two ply, baby! :) RagenT : Elementary wanted software that documents student progress, and to update AFA Bard : Sounds like he's on track, Ragen. Pest II : como se dice "cracks" en Espanol RagenT : hardware, JH wanted traing fro the macs. Pest II : <--- making a pest of himself AFC SteveB : :) RagenT : Yes, he is. Our system has just had a rough couple of years...finacially and AFL Gayle : OK. It's time now for a short commercial before we announce our winner of our AFL Gayle : free hour this evening. :) RagenT : politically. I think we will get back on our feet in the next few years. AFL Gayle : Next week, take a break! Spend Sunday with your father or favorite male! AED Pest II : facorite male? AFL Gayle : will not have a chat! Come back on June 28 for our Open Chat! :) We'll Pest II : oops AFL Marty : el cracko <-- "crack" in Spanish :D AFL Gayle : celebrate the close of school and talk about any topic related to education AFA Bard : I'll bring the chips & dip, Gayle. Let's have an online summer picnic!! AFL Gayle : you'd like to discuss. Of course, we'll have a free hour as usual to give away. AFL Gayle : (Bard, that's next month. :) AFC SteveB : Marty, I thought El Cracko was a term for a certain part of the body in AFC SteveB : Spanish :D AFA Bard : ROTFL Pest II : now now Mart...Steve said 'no Spanish cracks' AFL Gayle : Meanwhile, check out our New Files Library! Lots of new uploads in there! AFL Gayle : Now... for our free hour winner... AFC Tooter : *Indigo* That sounds like a foodfight intro, Bard. AFL Gayle : Our winner tonight is Jerry, Dub! :) AFA Bard : *Indigo* Indeed, Toot! Sherlock4 : hi, guys. just got in and your all on your way out. sorry I missed it. AFL Gayle : *Applause!* Pest II : yay Dub