12/10/90 8:09:51 PM Opening "chat 12.98" for recording. AFL Gayle : Welcome to the Apple // Education Forum! AFL Gayle : Please toggle to the menu at the top of your AFL Gayle : screen and check out the education chats AFL Gayle : scheduled for this week, right here in this AFL Gayle : room. AFL Gayle : AFL Gayle : Be sure to read From the Forum Leader at AFL Gayle : least once a week to keep updated on news in AFL Gayle : AED. AFL Gayle : AFL Gayle : Flash announcement! America Online is Number AFL Gayle : 1! Of course, we all knew that already, but AFL Gayle : this past weekend, during AppleFest in Long AFL Gayle : Service Award, given to Quantum in the Apple AFL Gayle : Achievement Awards. The panel consisted of AFL Gayle : one vote from each of the following AFL Gayle : organizations: A+/InCider, GS Plus, AFL Gayle : A2-Central, Nibble, CompuServe, GEnie, AFL Gayle : America Online, and Apple Computer. AFL Gayle : AFL Gayle : Don't forget to check out our New Files AFL Gayle : Library! New files are released daily! AFL Gayle : Now to our topic. AFA Bard is our "guest," AFL Gayle : who will share with us his experiences, pro AFL Gayle : and con, about Whole Language. As always, we AFL Gayle : don't use protocol in our chats. Just be AFL Gayle : courteous, and don't step on anyone's toes! AFL Gayle : Now silence again, for Bard's introduction. AFL Gayle : Take it away, Bard! :) AFA Bard : (Hi Alamo.. welcome!) AFA Bard : : AFA Bard : The whole language approach is really just a throw-back to the way they used to do things in AFA Bard : Language Arts Education. For years we've taught grammar, literature, writing and other subjects in AFA Bard : discrete "chunks". The whole language approach merely suggests that language should be learned the AFA Bard : way it is encountered... in context, with content emphasis. The idea that you can teach grammar, AFA Bard : for example, through passages from Hamlet, might be a good example. Writing, too, is handled a bit AFA Bard : differently. In a true whole-language approach, writers get their theme from material they've read, AFA Bard : or seen, or experienced. It's graded based upon what the teacher feels that particular students, or AFA Bard : the class is focused on that day. AFA Bard : : AFA Bard : It's not all that easy, however, to bring full curricular integration and an open-ended approach AFA Bard : to the language arts curriculum after teaching it in "chunks" for so long - but the effort is AFA Bard : truly worthwhile! * end of lecture * :))) AFL Gayle : Candy, can you share some of your whole language experiences with us? AFA Candy : As media specialist, I of course,had occasion to order materials AFL Gayle : Alamo and Lavonne, have you used whole language before? AFA Candy : which would fit into the whole language program. Alamo2 : Language experience approach to reading and whole language the same? AFA Candy : This year, the first graders did a whole language unit on dinosaurs, and the se AFA Bard : Very similar, Alamo. One is a component of the other. Alamo2 : explain AFA Candy : second graders on VanGogh. Wait til you hear the Logo project I did on VanGogh! AFA Bard : Go Candy... then I'll get to Alamo's question! The project sounds great! LavonneS : Our district embraces whole language and I am sort of out of the mainstream AFA Candy : Three of us specialists keyed into the first grade program. LavonneS : as a spec ed teacher but I am busy trying to really understand what it all is AFA Candy : The kids made ceramic dinosaurs in art, and OF COURSE then wrote about them. LavonneS : the more I hear I think it is the approach we have been using in spec ed all LavonneS : along AFA Candy : In the lab, we used Dinosaurs are Forever, a program in which the kids select AFA Candy : a dinosaure and then "color" it with the computer. Alamo2 : I think I've got it an intergrated approach. AFA Candy : Yes, exactly. Alamo2 : nothing new under the sun. Does research support? AFA Bard : Yes, Alamo. In comparative studies done with similar student populations... the writing style FranD : Hi everyone. I am a new user why did that happen? Bad weather AFA Bard : and overall understanding of content improved when whole language was used. MaryEz : When you talk about whole language, do you mean like with IBM's Writing to read AFA Candy : Another large project supporting whole language is compiling a catalog of all t AFA Candy : the "novel sets" in our district. AFA Candy : As well as the novel guides. Then you can use the novel approach, rather than AFA Bard : NO MARY!! Writing to Read proports to be "whole language", but it's really just "some language" :))) AFL Gayle : What about Logo and Van Gogh, Candy? That's the one that sounds fascinating to me. :) AFA Candy : the basal reader approach, and have plenty of materials to support your class. AFA Bard : In a true whole language environment, the lessons would extend beyond the computer environment, and FranD : I taught in a WL district. I moved to another location. What a difference! LavonneS : Is Writing to Read still around? AFA Candy : YES AFA Bard : FAR beyond the drill & practice WTR provides. :) MaryEz : Please explain! I'm not a Lanuage Arts teacher!:) AFA Bard : Yes, unfortunately. :) FranD : Yeah Bard Alamo2 : content understanding? ok, how about spelling, phonetics, oral reading? FranD : Strategies, strategies AFA Bard : They certainly have a place in whole language, Alamo.. the difference is that they become integral AFA Bard : parts of a whole lesson.. not taught in "chunks." The presentation might differ too... sort of Alamo2 : So research thus far supports content improvement or improvement overall AFA Bard : "teaching when they get to it" instead of "today we will learn phonics. ;)Screen Name: TEACHER ms FA Candy : In the Logo project, I defined procedures to draw the parts of a sunflower, AFA Bard : Welcome Murray! AFL Gayle : Welcome, Murray! Whole Language is our topic tonight. AFA Candy : and the kids put them together to make their own pictures. Alamo2 : Sounds like plato instructing his students. TEACHER ms: Thanks !!! AFA Candy : And of course, the music teacher taught Starry, starry night. AFA Bard : AWESOME, Candy! Think about all of the ideas and concepts you might glean from Candy's lesson... AFA Bard : all types of learning styles are addressed, LOTS of room for interdisciplinary teaching and the AFA Bard : expression of language can take differing forms. MaryEz : Would the Invertebrates Cookbook we are working on be considered a whole MaryEz : language project? MaryEz : It is a Science project following up the lesson on invertebrates and the MaryEz : kids are using CW&P to publish a cookbook for parents for Christmas. MaryEz : They are also using Dazzle Draw to illustrate in more detail than MaryEz : possible with CW&P. AFA Candy : That sounds great, Mary. What age kids? LavonneS : In whole language would they work on spelling as a subject or would it be MaryEz : 5th grade LavonneS : learned as needed in writing? TeachFL : Help! What is CW&P AFA Bard : A great idea, Mary! If your teachers introduce new vocabulary and talk about form and content during AFL Gayle : But CWPC will import the Dazzle Draw pictures, won't it, Lavonne? AFA Bard : the production of the book. It's probably whole language! ;)) AFA Bard : Children's Writing & Publishing Center AFL Gayle : CWPC is Children's Writing and Publishing Center, from Learning Company. AFL Gayle : Desktop Publishing for grades 2 up. Alamo2 : Is this whole language or whole learning (Holistic learning) LavonneS : I don't know if it will import dazzle draw, I haven't tried that FranD : What is Holistic Learning? AFL Gayle : There seems to be some conflict as to what exactly whole learning is, Alamo. AFA Bard : There is a difference, Gayle. AFL Gayle : I've heard it as using literature for reading and also as integrating all of MaryEz : We are not importing pictures, we will physically cut and paste to fill in empty spaces. AFL Gayle : the subjects together. AFL Gayle : OK, Bard. Please amplify on the differences. :) AFA Bard : :)) It's my understanding that in holistic learning, the teacher focuses on just ONE or TWO Alamo2 : Fran, Holistic approach to learning incorporates techniques, subjects, AFA Bard : concepts in a lesson... say punctuation in a student writing... and provides feedback, or grades Alamo2 : modalites, etc. Much like we use all our skills in the real world. FranD : Sounds more like Lucy Calkins Writing Process AFL Gayle : What is the Lucy Calkins' Writing Process, Fran? AFA Candy : I think any good idea winds up in many different places. Alamo2 : Missed that one AFA Candy : When I started teaching (1963) using literature based reading was called AFA Candy : Individualized Reading. FranD : Teaching Writing as a process. Setting up writers workshop where the children FranD : are allowed to chose their own subjects. Because that is what they want to LavonneS : I think every idea goes around and comes around. Depends how long you teach FranD : write about, a opposed to assigning topics. When they have several topics Alamo2 : exactly LavonneS : before you recognize it coming around again AFL Gayle : Quite true, Lavonne. FranD : in their folders they pick the one they want to publish and conference, edit Alamo2 : LavonneS, repackaged and resold. FranD : revise and then publishFor some reason, the host has failed to respond. Please continue. TeachFL : foreign language teachers are interested in whole language now TeachFL : instead of teaching one piece of grammar at time, we start with real TeachFL : language experiences AFL Gayle : Are you using whole language, Tom? TeachFL : I try. It ain't easy because some parents want the straight grammar appraoch TeachFL : approach TeachFL : But I have tried to abandon a "grammar based syllabus" and get into TeachFL : communication right away. Alamo2 : FranD, does't sound as if it works music, art etc. AFA Bard : Rehi! I think I have a cold in my node. :))) AFA Candy : Not exactly IN music and art, but in the classroom, the kids have written about FranD : I am focused Alamo AFA Candy : hat they were doing in music and art, all of which addressed the same main them Alamo2 : FranD, my daughter's language lessons include artwork, music, writing, spelling Alamo2 : and what ever else they can work in. LavonneS : In 1972 in Illinois the spec ed curriculum was written in units using a topic LavonneS : and working in all areas, reading writing math, art, music sci etc on that LavonneS : Is that whole language? FranD : Alamo2 sounds like the mulimedia publishing center for what audience? TeachFL : I thought that was interdisciplinary learning/teaching Alamo2 : LavonneS, I like that concept. I would call it Holistic learning Alamo2 : Fran she is in third grade AFA Bard : Interdisciplinary, I think. AFA Bard : Let's talk a bit about the CONS of whole language.. one of them, obviously, is a mass confusion abou AFA Bard : what whole language really IS... another is that it usually requires more planning on the part of the FranD : Alamo2 Do all these area concentrate on a central theme? AFA Bard : teachers... any other CONS?? LavonneS : We also taught beginning reading through writing of group and indiv exper story Alamo2 : fran, yes this week it was about a frontier families Christmas AFA Candy : It is harder to explain to/report to parents than a basal reading score. AFA Candy : ..or a standardized test score. AFL Gayle : Natalie Babbitt, a noted children's author, objects to Whole Language. She has AFL Gayle : an article in the latest issue of Horn Book Magazine. (Nov./Dec. 1990) She AFL Gayle : says if you dissect something to death (i.e. her view of whole language,) you AFL Gayle : lose the spontaneity and joy of it. Any rebuttals to that? FranD : What the heck??? Basals dissect. AFA Bard : Iris Bolton, another noted children's author, also has doubts about whole language.. she sees the idea TeachFL : I thought Whole Language was the opposite of dissecting. AFA Bard : of teaching "when you need it" as "unstructured and confusing" to students. LavonneS : Are we sure that we really get all the skills into it somewhere? I also AFA Bard : I think it IS, Tom. LavonneS : thought it was the opposite of disecting Alamo2 : TeachFl, I agree, I really missed the boat on the dissecting. TeachFL : FL teachers hate English teachers now because they don't dissect English! AFL Gayle : What she has experienced is teachers who send her workbook sheets with FranD : Journal responses, book talks, author studies, create thinking environments AFL Gayle : sentences to complete, quizzes, questions, etc., all about her book Tuck TeachFL : Whole language is creative thinking development, communicative competence FranD : Kids bring skills to school with them already. We spin their wheels to long AFL Gayle : Everlasting. She says, "I worry this will make a dry and tedious thing out of AFL Gayle : fiction. TeachFL : But what about learning a second language? Kids don't know anything about TeachFL : subjects, verbs and can't transfer their innate grasp of English to FL TeachFL : It wastes time. AFL Gayle : She says it's just substituting chicken for spam in the stew. AFA Candy : A good whole language program will not leave out grammar. AFA Bard : LOL!!! AFC Tooter: Howdie - whoile language? grammar? good talk. AFA Candy : We studied description in Cynthia Voigt's Homecoming and Dicey's Song. AFA Candy : An we spent hours on maps of the kids' journey. AFL Gayle : Hi, TooT! Do you use Whole Language in your curriculum? AFL Gayle : Great idea, Candy. :) AFA Candy : The kids did not burn out on it at all. AFC Tooter: Naturally. AFA Bard : Great opportunity for interviews of parents, too, Candy. ;) AFA Bard : Tell us about it Toot! AFC Tooter: What do you want to know? AFA Bard : How have you used whole language? What are some PROS and CONS? AFL Gayle : Do you use whole language? What is your opinion of it? Whatever you'd like to AFL Gayle : share. :) AFA Bard : (GMTA, Gayle!) AFC Tooter: Feeling on the spot. Let me follow for a bit. AFL Gayle : Natalie Babbitt says, "I don't believe in using fiction to teach anything AFL Gayle : except the appreciation of fiction." Reactions? Alamo2 : Johns Hopkins and University Md. have been using Language Experience approach Alamo2 : to reading for several years. This sounds very similiar. AFC Tooter: You can do many things at once. I want students to appreciate the art of AFC Tooter: fiction writing, but that is best done through their own experiences and through their own efforts to work in the mode of the fiction writer. AFA Bard : Natalie is an author... it doesn't surprise me that she'd have such a focused view of her art. Teachin FranD : Tooter what grade level do you teach? AFC Tooter: 9 through 12 AFA Bard : g an appreciation of fiction is certainly valid.. but, as TOOT sez, you can do much more! AFA Candy : I think Babbitt's view is that of an author who wants her work used only in AFA Candy : the way she visualized it. AFA Candy : I think when you sell your work, you give up that control TeachFL : Got to go and prepare my French whole language lesson for the week. Bye! AFL Gayle : Thanks for coming, Tom! :) AFC Tooter: How do fiction writers "use" the fiction they read? AFA Bard : Good point, Candy. Although, I admit I've used some Candy C. articles in staff development classes AFA Bard : for teachers. :) AFA Bard : Bye Tom! AFL Gayle : But that's what they were written for, Bard! :) (Sort of. :) AFA Candy : What I meant was, the author sees her story being enjoyed for the story she AFA Candy : has to tell, and thus objects to it being studied for some aspect of language AFA Candy : study. Alamo2 : Maybe its time to start teaching children the way we teach adults. Ask what yo Alamo2 : u want to learn and branch out from there or we can stop listening to those out Alamo2 : side education since they are not the experts. AFA Bard : Ahh.. Socrates lives! FranD : Bard you had 10 hours training, how about the rest?The mail has been saved to the Flashbox.Re: Revised and retrnedAFC Tooter Alamo2 : Years in Language Experience Approach with adultsYour mail has been sent FranD : The rest of you people!!! KeithRIT : Thanks, Bard AFL Gayle : but we're not presently using it, either. Elsewhere in the state, they are, AFL Gayle : however, and there have been some trainings for those teachers. AFA Bard : (Our topic is the Whole Language Approach to teaching. Jump in or feel free to listen!) AFA Bard : Has anyone noticed that some of the textbook companies are trying to pass off materials as LavonneS : Socrates was here too, this is getting deeper, since none of them can define LavonneS : whole language AFA Bard : "whole-language compatible?" It's kind of like "Apple // compatible. " :)) AFL Gayle : Yes, I've seen a lot of that, Bard. It's the new catch word in all of the AFL Gayle : educational magazine ads. Alamo2 : Right. nice discussion. thanks and bye AFA Bard : Nite Alamo! Thanks for coming by! AFL Gayle : Thanks for coming, Alamo. :) FranD : If it makes a lot of money anyone jumps on the bandwagon AFA Candy : Lots of publishers are marketing copies of their pictures books in large format AFA Candy : to key into the WL approach. AFL Gayle : Why ARE big books a part of whole language, Candy? AFA Candy : The class can read and talk about a story all together, AFA Candy : then they have their own regular sized copy of the book to read by themselves. LavonneS : Even Monsters and Make Believe make BIG BOOKS. It is great! AFL Gayle : Also SuperPrint II does, Lavonne. AFA Candy : And the New Print Shop. AFL Gayle : Right, Candy. I knew there was another one. Thanks. :) AFC Tooter: Are their any upper grade teachers here? I wonder how many read stories aloud AFC Tooter: in class. ?? AFL Gayle : Not many, but they should, TooT. Do you? AFA Candy : I know our 4th and 5th grade teachers do. AFC Tooter: Often. I think they need to hear complicated sentences read before they can AFL Gayle : Well, it's past our chat time, now but don't leave quite yet. We'd like to FranD : We don't even have enough teachers reading aloud in the primary grades. AFC Tooter: manage them silently. At least many do. AFL Gayle : invite you to our chat next week on Networking. Tonight the winner of our free AFC Tooter: I read Faulkner to ninth graders and they love it. Most can't make it happen AFC Tooter: themselves, however. AFL Gayle : hour of online time goes to FranD for her active participation in the discussion. She also was the first to say the word, "Theme" that Bard picked out as a key word. AFC Tooter: And I missed all her good talk :((( AFA Bard : Congratulations FRAN!!!! WOW are you lucky!!! ()()()()()()()()() <-- applause! AFL Gayle : Congratulations, Fran! FranD : Thank you, I didn't even know I could!! :) FranD : How did I do that??? AFL Gayle : Well, we like to keep it a secret sometimes and surprise those who stay for AFL Gayle : the whole chat and participate a lot. :) AFA Bard : Just being here with us, Fran! We hope you'll come back and share some more wisdom with us! AFL Gayle : It will be credited to your account at the first of next month. FranD : What a great WL experience!! AFA Candy : Good chat, everyone. Have a good week at school, all. AFL Gayle : Thanks for coming, Candy! Have a good week! FranD : Bye, nice meeting you. AFL Gayle : Come again next week, Fran. :) AFA Candy : Bye, Fran. 12/10/90 9:39:17 PM Closing file.