9/26/93 8:03:47 PM Opening "Chat Log 9/26/93" for recording. AFL Gayle : We're ready, Ira. How about telling us aboëut alternative assessment? Sherlock4 : ok, I will assume that no one knows what alternative/authentic assessment is Sherlock4 : for our purposes and the logs' if that's ok with you? AFA Bard : Great! Sherlock4 : Basically, the current method of assessing the capabilities of any given AFL Gayle : Yes. We know nothing. :) We're the know-nothings. ;) Sherlock4 : student/group of students is done through a combination of methods: NEA 4 ME : Hi all! AFL Gayle : Hi there, NEA! We're just beginning a discussion of alternative assessment. AFA Bard : (Welcome NEA 4 ME!) NEA 4 ME : Is this room for Apple II only or are Macs allowed too? Sherlock4 : a. tests of various sorts (objective/true-false/essay, etc.) AFL Gayle : We allow anyone, NEA. :) Even PC users. ;) AFA Bard : Macs too! NEA 4 ME : Hi AFL and AFA AFA Bard : Sorry.. Ira, go on. ;) Sherlock4 : b. "eyeball" observatiÿon and evaluation Sherlock4 : c. possibly group work Sherlock4 : d. projects of various types, etc. NEA 4 ME : <-found it ironic that Virginia is abandoning OBE. ZippedGS : Hi all! ZippedGS : MaRtY! AFL Marty : Hello :) AFL Gayle : Hi, Zip and Marty! :) Sherlock4 : "Alternative/Authentic" Assessment takes all of these various types + others ZippedGS : btw all: I uploaded a newer version of my stack to APR... Sherlock4 : and rolls them all together under one roof in an effort to get teachers/parents NEA 4 ME : Missouri is moving towards portfolio testing...but wants a #2 pencil assessment to test the portfolios Sherlock4 : administrators/etc. to look at the total student and assess how they are ZippedGS : It includes a text file on how to use it and examples, etc... and then it also Sherlock4 : moving from point a to point b. ZippedGS : has a run-time version of HyperStudio 3.1j AFL Gayle : (To APRà? Hrumph! Why not here? :) ZippedGS : I'll upload it here too Gayle :) ZippedGS : sometimes being a student is boring... SandyE : Hi All AFA Bard : (Hiya Sandy, Ira's leading a discussion of alternative assessment.) ZippedGS : I have two reports to type tonight...PLUS I have to mop the floors Sherlock4 : It includes the notion that students can express themselves in a variety of ZippedGS : oh joy Sherlock4 : mediums and methods to show that they "IN FACT" have mastered information & Sherlock4 : most importantly concepts and are able to apply them to various situations. Sherlock4 : For example: after the "normal" examination of the constitution, my low-track Sherlock4 : 11th graders will be participating in a 16 lesson application of 1 aspect Sherlock4 : (the executive branch) where Sherlock4 : they will serve as "presidential advisors" who are ó responsible for implementing SandyE : This does seem to be the logical way to "test" learning...Why do you think it' Sherlock4 : a Mandatory Community Service program for "the president". They will have to Sherlock4 : analyze, decide const. issues, budget, prepare a pres. speech, and as the SandyE : taken so long for education to reach "alternative assessment? Sherlock4 : culminating activity take a field trip to Fed. Hall in Manhattan and face the Sherlock4 : president and expound on their research while it is video taped for my eval. Sherlock4 : of their final performance. Sherlock4 : Basically Sandy, my position is that most teachers do this type of thing Sherlock4 : all along, the difference is that we are able to do more of what works under Sherlock4 : the "package" heading than ever before. I've been able to get a varience from AFL Marty : What fòorm does your evaluation take when it's time to report to the parents? SandyE : I know the teachers in my school do...it's really eye opening to watch kids have fun and *learn* too Sherlock4 : the st.ed. dept. for 3 years to put this in place ONLY for low-track 11th AFA Bard : Excellent question, marty! AFL Marty : (I get lucky sometimes :) Sherlock4 : graders in lieu of the Regents Minimal compet. test. without the pressure Sherlock4 : of the test, I can do more and better! Sherlock4 : A hi, marty. In my case I still have to rely on the normal # grades of Sherlock4 : my school district, but it is relatively easy to quantify since we do that AFL Marty : Relying on the normal number of grades.... is that a bad thing? Sherlock4 : anyway: i.e. I give a grade to an essay, a project, a presentation, etc. the SandyE : I contend that teachers can still issue grades based ú on the level of understanding student have and SandyE : the effort they put forth in learning the material. Sherlock4 : thing I do however, is allow ANY STUDENT who is not happy with his grade to Sherlock4 : redo the assignment & return it with the original for a higher grade BOTH pcs. Sherlock4 : go in their portfolio for period exam. as to improvement and refusal on the Sherlock4 : part of the student to accept less than his/her best. There is a constant Sherlock4 : self-evaluation process going on within the overall framework. AFA Bard : So you use checklists and rubrics to grade the projects? Sherlock4 : You betch! AFA Bard : Ever have the students design them? Sherlock4 : betcha (ooppps). AFL Marty : How often does a student get to redo an assignment? SandyE : Whew, Ira, I admire your dedication and the extra chances you give your kids. More work for you but SandyE ÷ : better for them... Sherlock4 : Not yet, bard. I want to get through this 1st year to evaluate it. However, Sherlock4 : last year's group help me formulate the new program. As far as marty's quest. SandyE : Have you ever considered a team approach, say with Language Arts perhaps...that's happening at my SandyE : school Sherlock4 : ANYTIME THEY FEEL THAT THEY CAN/SHOULD HAVE DONE BETTER. Here's an example Sherlock4 : that you all should understand: Sherlock4 : In discussing their bk. report/month and "how long". Upon questioning, they Sherlock4 : ALL knew what was a good and bad pr. of sneakers, music, clothing, etc. and Sherlock4 : finally they all admitted that they also knew what was acceptable to them and AFA Bard : (Welcome NRuddick! Sherlock4's leading a discussion about alternative assessment.) Sherlock4 : what was not. The reason they usually handed inâ substandard work is that Sherlock4 : they found that it was "just enough to get by" and was accepted by previous Sherlock4 : teachers! So, therefore, they should now learn what they are capable of and Sherlock4 : as part of the process, take PRIDE in their work. AFL Marty : If a student can redo any assignment anytime, what's the motivation for ... Sherlock4 : In answer to Sandy, the English dept. wants no part of it! As a matter AFL Marty : having an assignment fully prepared to hand in on time? Sherlock4 : of fact, their eng. teacher had no idea that they could write as well as they AFL Marty : A saying comes to mind... If you don't have time to do the job right... Sherlock4 : could for me last year. A SAD commentary. AFL Marty : how will you ever have time to do it over? Sherlock4 : Ahhh, marty--- now you enter into the idea of "eco. thinîking". Why should I AFL Marty : eco. thinking? SandyE : Truly sad, Ira...as an x-LA teacher, I'd jump at the chance to co-teach with Soc St. as folks are Sherlock4 : do it over, when I see that I can do it right the first time. "Opportunity SandyE : doing now. The two seem a perfect fit. Sherlock4 : costs and trade-offs".:-> AFC Leni : Hi, all :-) AFL Marty : Does that really happen? AFA Bard : (Hiya Leni! Sherlock4's leading a discussion about alternative assessment) Sherlock4 : It takes training and time, and without the pressure of the RCT, I've got the AFC Leni : (sorry) Sherlock4 : time. Yes it does, as a matter of fact on the 1st 2 hw assignments, I spent Sherlock4 : 2 pds. going over them to show them EXACTLY what they were doing wrong (many Sherlock4 : of them could see it immediately) as we examined actual answers and I got quite AFL Marty : ñRCT? AFA Bard : Hiya Mike! Sherlock4's leading a discussion about alternative assessment. Sherlock4 : a few redos. The REGENTS COMPETANCY TEST (a minimal comp. exam) required Sherlock4 : for a diploma. AFL Marty : (I hope I'm not monopolizing the conversation) Sherlock4 : YOU NEVER do, marty --- as a matter of fact, I miss speaking with you on a Sherlock4 : reg. basis. AFL Gayle : (No problem, Marty. Good questions. :) AFL Gayle : Anyone with questions, just jump in. :) Sherlock4 : Remember, in my case, I've got a bunch of low-track students who have been AFL Marty : How well do these students do in comparison to others not in this program? Sherlock4 : beaten down by the system and/or home and therefore have very little pride Sherlock4 : in anything they do. SandyE : I got knocked off (teenager picked up phone AARG!!) SandyE : I think I missed some important stuff, sorry Sherûlock4 : That is what we'll analyze in June. However, in past years without doing AFA Bard : (Log posted tomorrow, Sandy, never fear. :) Sherlock4 : as much because of the rct pressure (teach for the test), my kids have SandyE : I think ANYTIME you can get kids to write and read more than they usually would, you're ahead! Sherlock4 : generally done better than upper-level kids who have had to take the same Sherlock4 : exam. AFL Marty : You can't argue against a program that works. Sherlock4 : 90% of what they do --- including their weekly Journal --- is reading and Sherlock4 : writing. They are generally 2 years or more below grade level in skills and SandyE : Currently, in our district, there is a fruhaha about teaching math in a more "realistic" manner Sherlock4 : yet I get them to read and analyze original source docs., poetry, etc. all Sherlock4 : the time. AFA Bard ó: Ira... any resistance against your program by the "traditional" groups? AFL Marty : Have you given thought to implementing this program earlier in the students' SandyE : Kids were being "tracked" via math and now they aren't. They are teaching REAL life skills like AFL Marty : HS career? SandyE : balancing checkbooks etc. Sherlock4 : Not really, bard, because it has not been publicized to any great extent. Sherlock4 : I expect the ***** to hit the fan, when we publicize their writing ability and Sherlock4 : the english teacher gets "hammered". ZippedGS : Urgh! ZippedGS : I got bumped in the middle of an upload! ZippedGS : what should I do Gayle??? AFL Marty : Maybe you could share what you're doing with the English teacher. That way AFL Marty : s/he would have a chance to do something about it before it happens. Sherlock4 : I try, and her answer is that she's too busy teaÿching them to write for the AFL Marty : (You have to reupload from scratch, Auri) Sherlock4 : rct writing test. Sherlock4 : I've even told her that I'd come in and help her re: using the computer and AFL Marty : Sounds like she's between a rock and a hard place. Sherlock4 : the answer is I've not the time! Sherlock4 : the only rock and hard place is in her head! Writing is writing and if they Sherlock4 : can do it in one place, they can do it in another. AFL Marty : Then let the chips fall where they will. Sherlock4 : Wait until my chairman passes on some of their monthy TYPED book reports (which Sherlock4 : must be approved by me), which will include hist. novels, bios, book review Sherlock4 : formats, etc.! ZippedGS : rehi SandyE : I totally agree with Ira! I once had joint project with the science teacher in my team. They kids ZippedGS : so marty, how about my stack? was the sound good? ZippedGS :9 were the graphics nice? SandyE : saw the movie "Journey to the Center of the Earth" and had to compare today's knowledge with the AFL Marty : (I'll talk about it with you later, Auri) ZippedGS : could you figure it out easily? SandyE : knowledge back When J. Verne wrote the book. It was compare and contrast at its best. The were ZippedGS : Hi Wigster! :) SandyE : graded by both teachers. Great results! Wigster : HIya, All! ZippedGS : hi teacher AFA Bard : Welcome Murray! Wigster : Hi Murray! ZippedGS : here I go to upload again :) AFL Marty : It's too bad there isn't a gentler way to encourage teachers to change... TEACHER ms : Thanks, Bard !! TEACHER ms : Hi Jim !!! AFL Marty : without beating them over the head. Wigster : <---Migôht be an administrator in the very near future. AFL Marty : Ewwww Jim... and you admit it?! AFL Marty : :) AFL Gayle : LOL, Marty! :)) AFA Bard : :P~ Marty! Sherlock4 : You're right marty, however, too many people may feel that it is too much work Sherlock4 : to change their methodology withouth Sherlock4 : realizing that in the end it is either less work or the same amt. with the AFL Marty : Yeah, but I can sympathize with that. There IS such a thing as too much work. AFA Bard : Welcome Carolyn! Sherlock4 : added feature of superior rewarding result which make the job worthwhile. DUNMORE : Hi All TEACHER ms : Hi Carolyn !! AFA Bard : Carolyn.. does your school use alternative assessment of any type? Sherlock4 : You're right again, marty. I would NEVER have undertaken this without the Sherlock4 : variance from the state ed. dept. releasing me from the rct pressure. ýAFL Marty : It just seems to me that we spend a lot of time encouraging students to improve DUNMORE : yes big time , Portfolios lab based assesment and I'm starting electronic Assesment portfolios AFL Marty : but we are so very impatient with ourselves when it's time for US to improve. AFL Marty : (I hope that makes sense) AFA Bard : Are you using a prepackaged program, Carolyn, or your own archiving with standard applications? DUNMORE : No commercial we develop our own based on our Outcomes based Curriculum AFA Bard : So you're archiving your student work to a diskette? Talmadge : hi does anyone know anything about apple IIe inherited one no system of soft at all where can I Talmadge : obtain what's it worth DUNMORE : Yes or kids create stacks to prove they know the stuff in science. Some keep their journals of AFA Bard : Hang on, Talmadge. I'll send you an INSTANT MESSAGE è letting you know where you might find that out. DUNMORE : labs on disk . Each 3-4-5th grader has his /her own disk SandyE : Carolyn...how interesting. One of the science teachers at my school wants the kids to create SandyE : hypercard stacks of the periodic table of elements. Sound like a great project to me. I'd rather do SandyE : it in HyperStudio Mac, but haven't recieved mine yet...what do you think? SandyE : P.S. these are 8th graders. DUNMORE : Hyperstudio is the way to go I have both and Studio is better for kids AFA Bard : I like the idea of the periodic table, Sandy, but would hope that it's something more. Maybe SandyE : I'm not sure ALL of them can pick up on hypercard. You just reminded me that I need to check on my SandyE : order. AFA Bard : isolating one or more elements and expanding on them? You know, uses, thingsà that contain them, AFA Bard : hazards, etc. DUNMORE : Id love to see a periodic stack with molecular configurations in cartoon form. SandyE : Right, BW, the kids would work in teams and each team is responsible for one element. The stack SandyE : would have to TEACH the elements to others. Uses of the element, formulation etc. AFL Marty : That's a good idea Sandy. AFL Marty : Simple enough to link them all together with HS. SandyE : Gee, I think so too, but it wasn't my idea...just a clever, bright, innovative science teacher. Andrea MD : Hello All SandyE : Think of the research they will have to do just to prepare for the stack creations. Wigster : Hi Andrea. Andrea MD : hi MAC Eric 1 : <----GS ERIC Good Evening!!! TEACHER ms : Hello Andrea !!! Andrea MD : eric who? DUNMORE : You have enough for a semester of great learning that is self directed. Think of theð sounds AFL Marty : Such stacks could be -electronic- portfolios. DUNMORE : and graphic effects you could get. DUNMORE : Your right Marty AFL Marty : (Just sticking to the topic :) SandyE : For me, the learning curve will be learning hypercard (if I have to use that). SandyE : But I have faith that some kids will "get it" and teach the others along with me. DUNMORE : When you get your stack finished you could have students evaluate them also Takes away bias SandyE : Carolyn...graphic effects...dancing iron? SandyE : Yes, They love to evaluate each other's works. Wigster : Well, drawing the cards will be easy for any of the students... It only takes one person to link them DUNMORE : You bet you should see my dance of the crossed linked polymers. AFL Marty : Sound effects... snippet of sound from Iron Maiden album Wigster : I would love to see it, dunmore. DUNMORE : Get  the lead out and ley them soar They will nebver forget it. SandyE : get the lead out? LOL...they can used that line in their stack for sure. DUNMORE : Hyperstudio has a tutorial that the kids figue out in spite of us don't worry they will get it. Wigster : Well, I have to head out. You all have given me some great ideas! Wigster : night all. SandyE : Nite, Wigs DUNMORE : Of course you can not use scantron tests to assess this t-ype of learning. AFL Gayle : "Our winner is SandyE for the word understanding!" AFA Bard : CONGRATS Sandy!!!!!!!!!!! SandyE : Thanks, all....truly...I love these chats! SandyE : I learn SO MUCH each week. SandyE : P.S. My family is less than thrilled with the hour I spend with you guys.... Sherlock4 : as the year progresses, I'll be uploading various and sundry material that Sherlock4 : i use along the way. AFL Gayle : Great, Ira! :) We look forward to seeing them. :) 9/26/93 9:08:10 PM Closing Log file.