11/22/92 8:01:53 PM Opening "Chat Log 11/22/92" for recording. AFL Gayle : Our guest tonight is Charlie Hartley. He is the author of Computer Keyboarding. AFA Bard : Charlie's keyboarding programs are a "hot item" in the Apple // New Files Education Forum. And... AFA Bard : some are even "careware"! :) MaryEz : Hi, everybody! AFA Bard : Hiya Mary! AFC Tooter : *Fanfare* Mary!!!! MaryEz : *fightgoeson* AFC Tooter : *Drumroll* AFL Gayle : Charlie, why don't you tell us about your programs and why you wrote them? GGGGG : Anyone else here teach keyboarding? AFL Marty : ? AFL Gayle : I do, GGGGG. Go with your question, Marty. AFL Marty : I was wondering how to get your keyboarding program.... CharlieH2 : I wrote this for two reasons. One, I couldn't find a KB program that taught .. AFL Marty : to slow down when used on an Apple IIc+. CharlieH2 : typing the way I wanted ... accuracy not speed. AFL Marty : (I teach keyboarding also.) CharlieH2 : The speed problem on a GS is solved in version 4.01 I think ... but it does .. CharlieH2 : not work on 5.25 disks. AFL Gayle : What about the //c+, Charlie? That's Marty's question. AFL Marty : I'm using a IIc+ (plus) AFL Marty : It uses an internal 3.5" drive. CharlieH2 : The 3.32 version (freeware) was designed to run on 5.25 disks on //e's. AFL Gayle : (Welcome, Andy! :) AFL Marty : I'm using the latest version. AFA Andy : Hi Gayle! :) CharlieH2 : When I finished it, I had little idea that it would need to control speed. AFL Marty : The IIc+ runs slightly faster than the IIGS. AFC Tooter : Hi Andy. *Fanfare* GGGGG : ? AFA Andy : Wow, a fanfare for me? CharlieH2 : If the //c+ uses the same memory locations as the GS to control speed, then .. CharlieH2 : the latest version should work. CharlieH2 : If not, I'm not sure what to do. AFL Gayle : Don't you usually hit ESC when booting up a //c+ to slow it down for some AFL Gayle : programs, Marty? AFL Marty : I don't think it does, but I'll check again to make sure. AFA Andy : Thanks Toots :) AFL Marty : Yes, Gayle, but it's very hard to teach kids (especially beginners) how AFL Marty : to time that correctly. AFL Gayle : GGGGG, go with your question. Do you have a lab full of //c+'s, Marty? I didn't AFL Marty : If the esc key is released too soon then the machine operates at full tilt. AFL Gayle : realize that. AFL Marty : Yes I do... 22 of them. CharlieH2 : Does anyone know if the //c+ has specific memory locations for speed control? GGGGG : Charlie, in what order do you teach the general concepts of kb, and do you use AFA Andy : Hi Lavonne! GGGGG : other programs than yours? AFL Marty : I asked over in ADV (developers forum). The helpers from Apple told me AFL Gayle : Welcome, Spotty! CharlieH2 : Regretably, I don't teach anymore ... Assistant Principal now. AFL Marty : to buy a IIc+ technical reference. :-| Spottysoft : Hi {{Gayle}} :) AFL Gayle : ::groan, Marty:: How helpful. :( AFA Bard : Spotty! AFA Bard : Lavonne! Spottysoft : Hi Bard :) AFL Gayle : Charlie, I think you can address George's question about what order you teach AFL Marty : I have a few friends looking for info. If anything turns up I'll pass it CharlieH2 : I have a question .. How young is too young to teach keyboarding? AFL Marty : along to you. AFL Gayle : the general concepts of keyboarding in your program. AFA Bard : Charlie.. the IIc+ does, indeed, have a soft-switch capable of changing the speed control. I've got AFA Bard : an Apple Technical bulletin SOMEWHERE that tell about that... I'll search. :) CharlieH2 : George ... I believe that keyboarding must be taught in conjunction with .. CharlieH2 : word processing. If a user does not use the skill for something profitable .. CharlieH2 : he soon loses reason to polish the skill. LavonneS : I have a student who reads already but has major difficulties with a pencil GGGGG : Can you descirbe some of the wp activities that you have used? LavonneS : She is doing beautifully on Type to Learn AGE 5!! AFL Marty : How do you do that before the students know the entire keyboard? AFL Gayle : Good question, Marty. Charlie, any response? AFL Gayle : Who makes Type to Learn, Lavonne? CharlieH2 : Students already use word processors for lots of writings .. the idea is to .. LavonneS : Sunburst CharlieH2 : let them continue to do so, and at the same time, gradually improve their CharlieH2 : typing skills. CharlieH2 : Teachers at our school are big on the writing process and love using word .. CharlieH2 : processors. LavonneS : I want her to get entire keyboard as quickly as possible because she tend to AFL Gayle : Do you recommend any particular word processor, Charlie? Which is used at your AFL Gayle : school? LavonneS : revert to hunt and peck for "real " writing CharlieH2 : It makes the job of revising and editing so much easier. CharlieH2 : We use BSW III because we were able to get a site license for it. AFA Andy : As a really bad typist as anyone here can tell you would the program help me? CharlieH2 : I personally prefer AppleWorks. AFL Marty : Do you have any suggestions for "fun" kinds of keyboarding activities... AFA Bard : Do you use templates, Charlie? AFL Marty : to break up the monotony. Keyboarding gets pretty boring after a while. CharlieH2 : I was a hunt and peck typist for more that 20 years. I taught myself while .. AFL Marty : (should be a ? in there) CharlieH2 : creating this program. AFA Andy : Thanks Charlie, I'll try it out :) CharlieH2 : Writing templates? AFC Tooter : How long did you have to giver up real typing for when you taught yourself, Chalie? AFA Bard : Yup... or templates that help students work on their keyboarding skills? CharlieH2 : Toot, I'm not sure I understand the question. AFC Tooter : As you can see, Toot is typing for accuracy! ;-) GGGGG : CUE has some very good prompted writing activities for FredWriter CharlieH2 : Right George. AFC Tooter : I'm a very speedy hunt and peck. I've never stopped typing to learn the right way because I have too AFC Tooter : much real work to do. AFL Gayle : Have you used any of them, George? If so, are they any good? AFL Gayle : Charlie, what about Marty's question about fun kinds of keyboarding activities GGGGG : I have used some and then I created a bunch to fit my needs AFL Gayle : so it's not boring.I'm interested in the answer to that one, too. CharlieH2 : I tried to create the games that are in the program to break the boredom ... AFL Marty : (FYI... neither did I, Toot) CharlieH2 : but I not really sure that they are really FUN! :) GGGGG : My kids like the games alot CharlieH2 : The games are now available as stand-alones in the Intermediate Typing disk. GGGGG : Is that in the software section? AFL Marty : Cool... that could be very useful! AFL Gayle : New files library, George. CharlieH2 : I'm sure that someone with GS programming talents could make more interesting CharlieH2 : games. AFC Tooter : Marty, never did what? Learn touch typing? AFL Marty : Those games will come in handy on Wednesday (half day). AFL Gayle : Right, TooT. AFL Marty : Right... I never learned to touch type. AFL Marty : Yet here I am teaching it. CharlieH2 : I believe that if you devote 20 minutes a day for about 6 weeks, this ... AFL Gayle : Poor Marty. :( We finally have off on Wed. AFA Bard : And we won't even get NEAR the Dvorak controversy. :) CharlieH2 : program could make a typist out of you. AFC Tooter : Sold! Where do I get it? AFL Marty : Yuck.. I don't want anything to do with Dvorak CharlieH2 : Back to the age question ... what about the size of their hands? AFC Tooter : Got to put that in the record, Charlie! AFC Leni : Sorry, I came so late. Could someone please tell me the name of the program? AFL Gayle : The 3.5" version is in the New Files Library, Toot. The 5.25" version is in the AFL Marty : I've found that some 7th graders' hands are too small to reach comfortably AFL Gayle : Other Files Library. AFL Marty : to some of the keys. AFL Marty : Most 7th graders seem to do okay though. AFL Gayle : Computer Keyboarding, written by our guest, Charlie Hartley, Leni. Works on AFL Gayle : Apple // computers. :) AFC Leni : thanks GGGGG : Small hands is something I didn't take into account, we lowered our tables.. CharlieH2 : I have used it with sixth graders with the same size problem. GGGGG : to fit the small kids AFL Gayle : Interesting question, Charlie. I'm presently teaching keyboarding with AFL Gayle : electronic typewriters to 9th graders (coincidentally all girls) who complain LavonneS : On the other hand this 5 year old is reaching keys as needed. She is the AFL Gayle : to me about not being about to reach the keys. GGGGG : Maybe we need Suzuki style keyboards for younger kids AFL Marty : My biggest problem is getting them to sit up straight. AFL Marty : (I sound like my mother) LavonneS : youngest I EVER considered working with keyboarding, but she cannot hold a AFL Gayle : LOL, Marty! Right you are! :) LavonneS : pencil and make it work for her AFL Gayle : However, in NC, our state dept. has just adopted a new computer curriculum CharlieH2 : BTW 20 to 25 minutes is the best length of lesson time ... after that they AFL Gayle : that begins keyboarding at K and by 3rd grade, they are supposed to know all AFL Gayle : of the keyboard. I disagree with that, but still it's a struggle to convince CharlieH2 : start getting tired and make too many mistakes ... especially in the early .. CharlieH2 : lessons. AFL Gayle : middle schoolers they need to learn when they've been hunting and pecking for AFC Tooter : They use real keyboards in K or just Muppetboards? AFL Gayle : 6 years. AFA Bard : That's a really important fact, Charlie. About 20 minutes is the threshold for most kids. AFL Marty : I've found that to be true also. Too bad I have to deal with 47 minute periods AFL Gayle : Real keyboards, TooT. We just have one computer lab for all grades, K-9. AFL Gayle : Yes. I have a 50 min. period to contend with, Marty. CharlieH2 : Marty, try breaking it in half and using the other half for word processing. GGGGG : Given a 50 minute class period, what to do with the remaining25 minutes? LavonneS : Our K uses real keyboards, with one Muppet keyboard available as a choice GGGGG : Wow my question answered so fast! AFA Bard : good idea, Charlie. A few minutes of warmup, then some heavy keyboarding, then some creative writing RagenT : Hello. AFL Marty : Problem is that we do word processing with 8th graders. AFA Bard : *or* SCRAPBOOK stuff for the remainder of the period! AFL Marty : The curriculum is rather well-defined. AFL Gayle : Our Exceptional Children's elementary classroom has a computer with a Muppet CharlieH2 : Marty ... is that chiseled in stone? AFL Gayle : keyboard attached. It's broken more than it works, though. AFL Gayle : What is your curriculum, Marty (the well-defined one :) ? AFL Marty : I have that impression... I suppose I could sneak something in on occasion. LavonneS : Can you get it repaired? AFL Marty : Grade 7 = keyboarding; Grade 8 = Word processing AFL Gayle : Yes, Lavonne. Sunburst swaps it for free, but I get tired of mailing it back AFL Gayle : all of the time. CharlieH2 : Good rule ... If it ain't broke, break it! I still think that the two should CharlieH2 : be combined. LavonneS : My husband opens them and reattaches some wire AFL Marty : Board of Ed's idea; not mine. AFL Gayle : Is that a district curriculum decision, Marty? AFL Marty : Yes it is. AFL Gayle : No husband to do that, Lavonne. Glad to hear it's not just ours that has AFL Gayle : problem, though. CharlieH2 : Where are you Marty? AFA Bard : Hmm... of course if you can demonstrate "superior outcomes" with the "New & Improved Marty Curriculum" AFA Bard : I doubt they'd mind. :) AFL Marty : I could probably do some WP occasionally, but not every day for half the AFL Marty : period. AFL Marty : Middletown, CT CharlieH2 : There are other things you could do ... how about a unit on Carmen Sandiego? CharlieH2 : Great for group work. AFA Bard : Or Scrapbook? (plug, plug) CharlieH2 : Tell me about scrapbook. AFL Marty : I'm doing ScrapBook with my 8th graders, Bard. AFL Gayle : Marty has done ScrapBook, Bard. AFA Bard : TooooooooT-- that's our cue! :)) AFL Gayle : TooT, there's your cue. Go for it! LavonneS : When you do keyboarding at 7th or 8th grade, do they transfer from a hunt and AFC Tooter : ScrapBook is a writing exchange program that has been running on AOL since 1989. We are LavonneS : peck style successfully? AFC Tooter : building a ScrapBook of all the places we live. So far there have been AFC Tooter : 137 chapters of student essays and poems contributed representing schools in 27 states. AFL Marty : My students seem to do so, Lavonne. Most of them haven't used a computer AFL Marty : outside of school before. CharlieH2 : Yes Lavonne, especially when they get a little more than half way and see ... AFL Gayle : Good question, Lavonne! How about addressing that issue, Charlie? AFC Tooter : The ScrapBook curric is very flexible permitting classes of most age levels and academic areas. CharlieH2 : that it is easier and quicker. GGGGG : Is there a penpal type project on AO? AFA Bard : Welcome Kriti - we're discussing keyboarding with software author CharlieH2! :) CharlieH2 : I'm sure glad I'm logging this ... your folks are fast! :) LavonneS : What is the youngest age that seems to succeed easily? AFC Tooter : There are lots of pen pal exchanges. I have found that few really have taken off. Seems something' AFC Tooter : more is needed to really engage students. CharlieH2 : Ever tried FrEdMail? AFC Tooter : Something like ScrapBook engages students with each other but, hoepfully gets beyond the, "this is my AFC Tooter : pet" stage. AFL Gayle : Have you used FrEdMail, Charlie? CharlieH2 : No, I was hoping you had. AFC Tooter : Gayle is the local FrEdMail expert. CharlieH2 : Great! AFL Gayle : Yes, I have, Charlie. :) Have you, GGGGG? AFL Marty : I dunno Lavonne... I've never taught anything below grade 7. AFC Tooter : Charlie, you ought to stop down at the Electronic SchoolHouse (Keyword ESH) and see the wide variety o AFC Tooter : online projects occurring here. GGGGG : I'm using the kidsnet on internet to exchange with other schools AFC Tooter : Pen Pals, George? AFL Gayle : What are you exchanging, George? AFA Bard : Lavonne - I've seen successful keyboarding (success meaning real mastery) as early as 3rd grade. AFL Gayle : Charlie, to address your implied question, yes, FrEdMail is a good vehicle for GGGGG : pretty much, but we tried a project like the Global grocery list AFL Gayle : school to school projects, although you can't have chats as we can on AOL for LavonneS : Yes, I think 3rd grade is a good level. AFL Gayle : the ScrapBook Projects. CharlieH2 : Another question ... any serious network programmers in the crowd? AFC Tooter : Global grocery list is a great idea. We tried it here a few years ago, but at that time there weren't AFL Gayle : Global Grocery List? That's a FrEdMail Project, George, born right here in NC! AFC Tooter : enough teachers online to make it work. AFL Gayle : :) AFC Tooter : And FoodFights, Gayle ;-) *FoodFoodFight* CharlieH2 : Someone who uses my 3.32 version wants a network version ... and I don't ... CharlieH2 : do network. AFL Gayle : Leni, looking for a new project? There's one for you, Leni. :) RagenT : I'd like to hear more about global grocery list. Just attended a GLobal ed RagenT : conference yesterday! AFL Gayle : Ragen, there are files about Global Grocery List here under Company Support, AFA Bard : *CNN voice tag*And we can't forget the new addition of CNN and all the interchange possiblities! AFL Gayle : in the FrEdMail Library. AFC Tooter : Just what Leni needs, another project torun ;-) RagenT : Thank you, Gayle. Spottysoft : bak..... Spottysoft : now turning around..... AFL Gayle : She does, TooT. She's projectless now that the Election is over. :) AFC Tooter : That's really a high quality sound clip, Bard. AFA Bard : I just love that one, Tooter. :) AFC Tooter : Don't count on it, Gayle. AFL Gayle : When do we get a GS edition of that sound, TooT? :) AFC Tooter : You mean I have to make it???? CharlieH2 : No networkers eh. Too bad. AFA Bard : :)) GGGGG : Gotta go, Thanks charlie for your insight, if I make progress on the 2E,rgb.. AFL Gayle : Any other questions for Charlie? Charlie, our programmers are all over in ADV, AFC Tooter : That's Bard's sound, and he can do the transfers without walking one side of his house to the other. AFL Gayle : the Apple // Development Forum. AFL Marty : What I know about networks would fit in a thimble LavonneS : Toot, when will you send voice mail sounds online? AFA Bard : I can put you in touch with some networker-programmers online, Charlie. GGGGG : problem, I'll let you know. AFL Marty : with room to park a '47 Buick alongside. :) AFL Gayle : What I know about networks is that other people online have them, but I don't AFL Gayle : yet. ;) AFC Tooter : voice mail sounds online? CharlieH2 : Bard ... I would seriously be interesting in finding someone who could .. AFA Bard : :) Gayle. Believe me, sometimes it's a blessing NOT to have them. :) AFC Tooter : Perhaps with AOL Mac 3.0?? CharlieH2 : do it for me. LavonneS : Make your voice come across with the food fights etc :) AFL Gayle : OK. Bard can translate the sound then, TooT. :) AFC Tooter : We have kids' voices with the food fights now! *SnackAttack* LavonneS : Future technology at our door AFL Gayle : I'll check around for you, too, Charlie. AFL Marty : Are those your kids' voices? AFC Tooter : Have you downloaded the sounds Lavonne? Spottysoft : <-- could fit what he knows about networks along with Marty in the same thimble AFL Marty : (students) AFL Gayle : Any last minute questions for Charlie? AFA Andy : Gotta get to work, night all :) LavonneS : NO, thats another day's project AFL Marty : GNite Andy AFC Tooter : Those are Babz00's kids. She got them to make sound s last year and over the summer I AFL Gayle : Commercial time... Next week, spend the evening with your family. AED takes AFC Tooter : translated them so that GS users can have the FoodFight sounds too. AFL Marty : Aha AFL Gayle : a Thanksgiving holiday! Join us again on Dec. 6 for our next chat. LavonneS : OK goodnight AFL Gayle : Meanwhile, if you haven't already, be sure and download Charlie's programs CharlieH2 : Thanks for having me. AFL Gayle : in the New Files Library and in the Other Files Library of AED. There are 2 AFL Marty : I remember her technical crew from the CECA conference... smart bunch! AFL Gayle : wonderful utilities available, too. AFC Tooter : :-)) AFL Gayle : Now, the time you've all been waiting for... our free hour. AFL Gayle : But first, a GREAT big thank YOU to Charlie for being our guest tonight! :) AFL Gayle : *Applause* AFA Bard : Thanks to Charlie!!! AFA Bard : ()()()()()()()() AFC Tooter : APPPPPPPPLAUSE!!!!! AFL Gayle : And the winner of our free hour tonight is.... AFC Tooter : *Fanfare* AFL Gayle : GGGGG for the word, hands! :) AFA Bard : Congrats to -------------> GGGGG !!!!!! Good show!!!!! Nice job!!!!! RagenT : Congratulations! ()()()() AFL Gayle : Congratulations, George! :) 11/22/92 9:02:31 PM Closing Log file.