File: 
Date: 5/29/94
Start Time: 7:53:57 PM
End Time: 9:02:26 PM

Participants: AFA Andy, AFA Bard, AFC Leni, AFL Gayle, ANNA T G, C Hartley, DavidB1702, MaryEz, RogerS34


AFA Bard   : Welcome to the Apple // Education Forum Weekly Conference!   Our guest tonight is Charles Hartley- he's a veteral educator/administrator and a whiz at programming the A2.  He's written several programs, including the popular COMPUTER KEYBOARDING program for the Apple //. (Found here on AOL in our AED NEW FILES library!)


AFA Bard   : Charles, are you still writing programming for the A2?

C Hartley  : That's all I know.

AFA Bard   : What wonderful ideas are you working on now?

C Hartley  : I have a couple of submissions at Softdisk pending, one accepted and one that I hope they like. Can't talk about them though.

AFA Bard   : Cool!  Are they as excellent as the keyboarding programs?

C Hartley  : Not nearly as large, but I like them.

AFA Bard   : Can't wait to see them!  Haven't you had something published through Softdisk before?

C Hartley  : I also had a game called Ultra Tic Tac Toe published in the May A2 Central. No, this will be my first with Softdisk.

AFA Bard   : Aha!  THAT's where I saw it.  That was great.  Looked like it took a long time to crank that one out!

C Hartley  : About a month, off and on.

AFA Bard   : Such patience!  How, incidentally, did you learn to program?  Courses or just self-taught?

C Hartley  : Self taught.  I started with Applesoft basic and then moved on to assembly language.

AFA Bard   : What assembler tools do you use? Hiya MARY!

C Hartley  : Merlin

C Hartley  : How did your Scrapbook stuff turn out this year, Mary?

MaryEz     : We have published a book for this last session.  It is beautiful.  We did research project on Medieval times and kids wrote scraps from the point of view of a CT Yankee in King Arthur's Court.  They did a fantastic job.  You can read favorites in Session #4 board.

AFA Bard   : Did you wear your paper crown for the Medieval festival, Lady Mary?

C Hartley  : Sounds great!

AFA Bard   : (Those favorites are WONDERFUL, I've shared them with lots of folks!)

C Hartley  : I'll have to take a look. (-:

MaryEz     : No, Bard, I didn't I was in the Scriptorium madly publishing the book. The kids did the typing in Appleworks, then I transferred it to Mac and used Black Chancery and Morris Initials fonts to dress up the titles and the first letter in each scrap so that they really looked super.

AFA Bard   : Wow! Did you get parchment paper?

MaryEz     : I downloaded those fonts from AOL. The kids did artwork and the cover. Looks great.  

AFA Bard   : Mary, Did you now that Charlie's had a program published in A2 Central? He did a "tic Tac Toe" on steroids. :)


AFA Bard   : Andy-- wave to Charlie Hartley, programmer extraordinare!  He's our SPECIAL GUEST tonight as we discuss KEYBOARDING. (Andy-- give me a call!)

MaryEz     : Charlie, about keyboardin.  How do I get the High School business department to give up ownership 

AFA Andy   : Hi Charley, nice to meet you :)

MaryEz     : on Keyboarding.

C Hartley  : What grade level are you?

MaryEz     : 5th and 6th *Fanfare*


AFC Leni   : Wow!  What a welcome, friends :-) C Hartley, I teach middle school (6-8)

C Hartley  : Mary, what do they say about typing instruction on that level?

MaryEz     : They do NOT want anyone teaching keyboarding but themselves.  Of course, nowadays, but the time

C Hartley  : Leni, what do you teach?

MaryEz     : the kids get to high school they have terrible habits if you don't start earlier.

C Hartley  : Do you have to ask their permission?

AFC Leni   : Technology, Charlie.

MaryEz     : They say we don't know how to teach keyboarding!  They have gone to powers that be and asked that we leave it alone.

AFC Leni   : The highschools, Mary?

C Hartley  : Actually, my experience with typing instruction is with grades 6-7-8.

MaryEz     : Yes, Leni.

AFA Bard   : Welcome Joell!  We're talking KEYBOARDING with our special guest C Hartley. ;)

C Hartley  : The 6th graders seem to have more problems with it.

AFC Leni   : I have also worked with 4 and 5, Charlie.  I teach keyboarding to all my classes, albeit, briefly.

C Hartley  : My best keyboarding students were 7th and 8th graders.

MaryEz     : Actually, I would teach it if I saw my kids more often than once in 6 days.  It doesn't make sense

AFC Leni   : I'll corroborate that, Charlie :-)

MaryEz     : to wait until HS these days.

C Hartley  : Mary, if YOUR boss says no, then don't.  Can you get his/her ok?

MaryEz     : Do you think there is any point in teaching it once in 6 days?  I only have 30 periods with the kids spread over 180 days.

C Hartley  : Probably not.

AFC Leni   : Too late by highschool!  I think middle school is too late to begin, too.

MaryEz     : Charlie, I learned a long time ago, it's easier to apologize than ask permission!  

AFC Leni   : Mary, do the teachers use computers in their classrooms?

C Hartley  : I taught it for a 12 week session; 20-25 minutes each day.

MaryEz     : Not enough computers, Leni. Some have them but most do not.

AFC Leni   : How about those keyboarding machines or something like AlphaSmart as a solution?

C Hartley  : Each student needs daily access to be effective. I've found that 20-25 minutes 

MaryEz     : I am working on AlphaSmart right now.  But this week 15.6 teachers were cut from the budget so

AFC Leni   : That could be passed from classroom to classroom on a rotating basis.  Sorry Charlie.  I'll be quiet now. 

MaryEz     : I don't think I'll be getting anything.  Lucky to still have my job.

C Hartley  : is sufficient.  Thus you can probably get two groups in a typical class period.

MaryEz     : Charlie, one thing that I do is use some finger exercizes ala the old home row etc. I do about 5 

AFC Leni   : How do you instruct them, Charlie?  A commercial program...directed lessons...what?

MaryEz     : minutes each period when I introduce Appleworks. 

AFA Bard   : Charlie.. this is a good time to talk about your KEYBOARDING program (it's in our NEW FILES library!)

C Hartley  : Well, first of all, I have been the assistant principal for three years, so I haven't been actually teaching. But when I did, I used my own program.

AFC Leni   : Tell us about it, please :-)

C Hartley  : Computer Keyboarding 5, which is in the library, is the latest version of a

MaryEz     : DOS, Mac or Apple?

C Hartley  : program that started out 6-7 years ago as an answer to the same problem that

AFA Andy   : I downloaded it and used it for a short time. I couldn't send the fee in so

AFA Bard   : (A2, Mary)

AFA Andy   : I stopped using it. It's a very nice program, Charley.

C Hartley  : you are facing ... students who can type well enough to use a word processor

AFC Leni   : Is A2 the only platform, Charlie?

C Hartley  : effectively.   Yes it is for the Apple platform.

AFC Leni   : Thank you.

C Hartley  : Sorry, but I don't program any other machine.

MaryEz     : Yea, somebody is still thinking of us!!!

C Hartley  : The program is highly structured, with students advancing as they demonstrate accuracy in typing.

AFC Leni   : How do they demonstrate this accuracy, Charlie?

C Hartley  : Speed is NOT a consideration.  Speed comes with accuracy.

AFA Andy   : I agree :D

MaryEz     : Righto, my belief exactly!!

C Hartley  : The program keeps track of their program, keystroke by keystroke. Make that progress, not program.

MaryEz     : That is why I dislike the MECC typing program that I used to use.

AFA Andy   : I used the MECC program this year, it's not very good.

C Hartley  : The MECC program is what drove me to create my program!

MaryEz     : I can see why!

AFA Andy   : I surely believe that :D 

AFA Bard   : Actually, Charlie's very modest.  His program is really the best I've seen because it stresses accuracy over speed and is very flexible.  Kids love it.

MaryEz     : Is it networkable?

AFA Andy   : How much is it for school, Charley? :)

C Hartley  : Sorry, I don't know how to write for networks. $100 for a site license that includes teaching utilities.

MaryEz     : Does each kid have to have their own disk? 

AFA Andy   : Thanks

C Hartley  : 5.25" disks support up to 10 users (one at a time). 3.5" and HD support more. Thus, you can have one disk per computer.

AFA Bard   : That is, incidentally, less expensive than MECC.  re-hi Gayle!


C Hartley  : It works on //e, //c, GS, and II+ with lowercase.

MaryEz     : I have 24 GD computers with both drives.  

AFA Bard   : You mean GS, mary??? LOL!

AFA Andy   : :)

AFA Bard   : ROTFL

C Hartley  : A site license is for the school site ... unlimited # of computers.

AFC Leni   : LOL, Mary...tell it like it IS!

MaryEz     : I see 265 kids in a 6 day cycle.  Will that work?  Well, Bard, sometimes they are GD when they flake out on me.

C Hartley  : Mary, the program starts with extensive lessons on the home keys. So, you could use it for your keys to at least learn them. The program includes several games, most having to do with typing. What do you folks think about typing instuction at the middle school level? Or lower grades?

AFC Leni   : Charlie, I like the idea of doing it every year from about 3rd to 7th grade.

AFL Gayle  : I think about 5th grade, Charlie,; since that's when word processing starts often.

AFA Bard   : 3rd grade is about the right time for focused instruction, I think.  K-2 for "familiarity". 

AFA Andy   : Well, in TN it's required at all grade levels after 1rst, I believe. 

AFC Leni   : but not for 12 weeks.

C Hartley  : One problem that I see is that younger students do not have the hand span to reach all the keys.

MaryEz     : I think it should start very early.  I often though Kindergartners could play a kind of hopscotch game

AFC Leni   : Usually by 3rd or 4th, they can.

MaryEz     : on a keyboard painted on the playground. though= thought

AFL Gayle  : It's mandated at 3rd grade in NC.

C Hartley  : How long should lessons last? 

AFC Leni   : About 15-20 minutes daily seems optimal to me. Perhaps more in the later grades, but for fewer total days.

MaryEz     : 10 minutes in 1 and 2 maybe.  15-20 3/4 and 20 5/6 but it should be at a minimum of every other day. Every day is better.

C Hartley  : Longer than 20-25 minutes and I find that mistakes begin to be a problem.

AFC Leni   : Yes, I do, too.  Fatigue sets in.

C Hartley  : Hand fatigue is a consideration as well.

AFC Leni   : :-)

MaryEz     : I hate to give up the time from my curriculum.  I wish kids would come from 4th grade all keyed up.

C Hartley  : Sounds familiar. We always want the kids to come to use prepared to go. (-:

AFC Leni   : Mary I take 3 weeks for 6th grade, daily, and 2 weeks for 7th and 8th...good way to start the quarter 

C Hartley  : us not use

AFC Leni   : I find and it leaves time for other curriculum as well.

MaryEz     : We still don't have computers in all of our elementary schools.  

AFA Andy   : That's what I did, Leni. It seemed to work well that way.

C Hartley  : Are your schools replacing their Apples with something else?

AFA Andy   : Yes, PCs

AFC Leni   : We are using a mix of IBM and Mac.

C Hartley  : What are you doing with your Apples?

AFC Leni   : No, Apples...they went to the classrooms for mini labs.

MaryEz     : No, not with the budget situation.  We are not even repairing.  I am doing what I can to make one good computer out of parts.

AFA Andy   : They are putting them in the classrooms of other teachers.

MaryEz     : We are going down hill instead of up.

AFA Andy   : I have to repair ours too, Mary. :/

C Hartley  : If you find that they (the Apples) are not being used, why not use them for

AFA Bard   : Welcome Ghost.. we're talking with Charley Hartley about his great Apple // Keyboarding Program.

C Hartley  : keyboarding instruction.

AFA Andy   : My lab is 15 IIe's. I do use them for keyboarding :)

C Hartley  : Good!

MaryEz     : I would love to get a classroom set of AlphaSmart keyboards and use them for keyboarding and writing.

C Hartley  : Andy, what program do you use?

AFC Leni   : I think we will do that this year, Mary.

AFA Andy   : I used the MECC program, Charley. If I'm still using Apples next year I'll get the principal to cut you a check :)

C Hartley  : Thank you! 

AFC Leni   : Charlie, I use the Herzog method.  Do you have any opinion about it? 

AFA Andy   : I would pay it myself, my they don't pay much here. my = but

AFC Leni   : (poor Andy :->)

C Hartley  : Herzog? Sorry, I don't know about it.

MaryEz     : I'll check it out, Charlie.  Download it from here and try it with the kids during these crazy last days of school.  The kids have stopped learning since April vacation!

AFC Leni   : Herzog is not program dependent, Charlie.  It is teacher directed, using a word processing program..

AFA Andy   : Free to to take the NTE, Bard ;) 

AFC Leni   : So is ideal for a mixed lab.

AFL Gayle  : You're kidding, Andy. TN still requires that, too?

AFA Andy   : Yes, they do :/ AL didn't so I have to take it now.

C Hartley  : How do you like it, Leni?

AFA Andy   : It's been 15 years since I've had some of those classes. :/

AFL Gayle  : That happened to me when I moved to NC. Couldn't get paid without it.

AFC Leni   : I liked it a lot, Charlie.  This was my first year using it.  It utilizes key hub sensors to anchor the fingers, a;nd the keys are taught in alphabetical order. 

C Hartley  : key hub sensors?

AFC Leni   : LOL....they are like tactile caps and the fit on, and are glued to ... the D, K, 3, 8, keys.

AFA Bard   : Do they have bumps on them, Leni? Or raised letters?

AFL Gayle  : What happens when an enterprising youngster pries one off and carries it with him? 

AFA Andy   : D and K have something like that already.

AFC Leni   : I kill him!

AFA Andy   : At least on the Apple Standard keyboard.

C Hartley  : Then what?

AFC Leni   : They have bumps.  VERY effective :-)

AFL Gayle  : LOL, Leni! :)

AFA Bard   : You teach keys alphabetically?

C Hartley  : I believe that teaching keyboarding should go hand-in-hand with teaching word processing.

AFC Leni   : Yes...and very quickly....about three weeks is enough time.

AFL Gayle  : Agree, Charlie! :)

AFC Leni   : And we are using the word processor to do it.

AFA Bard   : Ah.  I can see them trying to type a "z"... uhm.. a,b,c,d,e....y, oh, Z!  LOL! Of course it DOES seem more intuitive than asdf jkl;!

AFC Leni   : Look at the keyboard, guys....see how you can teach A-G on the same hand....goes quickly and easily!

AFA Bard   : Have any studies been done to determine effectiveness vs traditional methods?

C Hartley  : Does the program teach the proper fingers to use? (probably a dumb question)

AFL Gayle  : Heh, heh... also shows the lefties are superior, since they go first. ;))

AFC Leni   : Yes, Charlie.  Bard, they claim to have the statistics.  I am trying it for the first time. Good point, Gayle :-)

AFA Bard   : So, there are no programs- you just use a word processor?  (CH, sounds like an opportunity to offer another version of Keyboarding!)

MaryEz     : abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz

AFC Leni   : We teach about five to seven keys a day, and put them into words right away.

AFA Bard   : abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz Hmm.. maybe!

MaryEz     : GMTA?

AFC Leni   : Kids like it very much!  I make it much fun for them :-)

C Hartley  : Have you had a chance to see how much they retain over a period of time?

AFC Leni   : There is a teacher's manual, and student cards.

AFA Bard   : How about punctuation, number keys?

MaryEz     : They come after z, Bard.

AFC Leni   : Yep...can do them all, Bard.  Charlie...that I haven't.  i have them for a quarter, and then they are gone.

AFL Gayle  : How much does the program cost, Leni?

C Hartley  : I suspect that if they continue to use the skills that they have learned,

AFC Leni   : I will see what is retained when I get them next year, again. About $250, I think...but it is a one shot expense.

C Hartley  : they will do well. If not, they will lose most of it in a short time.

AFA Bard   : Absolutely, CH.  Continued practice is the key no matter WHAT the program!

AFC Leni   : I suspect you are right, Charlie :-)

RogerS34   : Hey, guys 

AFA Bard   : Welcome Roger!  We're chatting with C Hartley, author/programmer of the KEYBOARDING program for

C Hartley  : Bard's right. That would happen with any program.

AFA Bard   : the Apple // (found in our New Files library!)

MaryEz     : I had a 5th grader a couple of years ago who did 95 w/m consistently.  She used Mavis Beacon at home.

C Hartley  : Rare case, I bet.

AFA Bard   : Well folks.. let's bring this wonderful session to a close.... First, I'd like to give a HUGE round of applause for our guest, Charlie Hartley, programmer 

ANNA T G   : I need a word processor for 48k apple ii + Can anyone help?

MaryEz     : She is in 7th now and the teacher wanted to enter her in Guiness.

AFC Leni   : Thank you, Charlie.  It was great to talk with you!

RogerS34   : We use a programmed called Keyboard Teacher for the IBM. 

AFA Bard   : extraordinaire!  THANKS for being our guest tonight! ()()()()()()()()()()()  Applause!

MaryEz     : {}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}


AFA Andy   : Very good, Charley :)

RogerS34   : Anna, try to find a program called Apple Writer 

MaryEz     : *fanfare* 

AFA Andy   : Anna, have you tried AppleWriter?

C Hartley  : It's been fun, folks!

AFA Bard   : Charlie's program can be downloaded from the AED New Files library. It's available in both 3.5

ANNA T G   : thanks

AFA Bard   : and 5.25 Apple // formats.

AFA Andy   : That's the only one I can think of for a IIe.

AFL Gayle  : Thanks for coming Charlie! :)

AFA Bard   : And.... In TWO WEEKS we'll feature a conference LIVE from NECC in Boston, Mass!  NECC is the National

AFA Bard   : Educational Computing Conference.  We'll log on at the regular time 8-9 and give you a pre-conference

AFA Bard   : update as well as the "scoop" on all thelatest! 

AFA Bard   : If you're going to be in Boston, join us for the AOL get together at 7pm, Sheraton Boston

C Hartley  : Bye.

AFA Bard   : Thanks, Charley!

MaryEz     : I just finished my handout tonight! Monday, Sheraton Lobby, 7 pm

AFA Bard   : Ya'll have a GREAT week!  Summer's just around the corner!

AFL Gayle  : Good night, all! Time for ST NG, the finale! :)