Date: 10/23/94 Start Time: 7:56:32 PM End Time: 9:03:16 PM Participants included: AFA Bard, BCS Frank, BobFrost, DUNMORE, GeOBOne, Jennimay, LisaB3571, MaristR, Mary Bryan, MaryEz, PamErwin, Susan G2, Alpine69, Altine1231 AFA Bard : Well folks... let's begin tonight's chat!! FIRST a couple of REALLY IMPORTANT messages....!!! AFA Bard : As of November 1, 1994, AOL will be making some changes that will effect our Apple // members here online. First, we'll be consolidating all the downloadable software into one huge library and "weeding" out some of the less-downloaded files. You'll STILL be able to download them... but, unfortunately, the A2 AOL software won't be supported anymore. :( So... folks will download files on their Macs/PCs and transfer them to A2's. :))) AFA Bard : Next Sunday's chat... and Next Monday's chat will be the last two in THIS room... the BEST NEWS is that our EDUCATION CHATS on Sunady night will be in a BRAND NEW LOCATION! Yippee!!! Look for information online as to the new location. I'll send you folks a special invitation to our new "housewarming" for our new conference area. That's correct, Roger. After an unspecified time which may be Nov. 1, Rog. (Mostly so, Lisa, or a student.) If you have specific questions about the transition-- send e-mail to AFL Gayle or to AFA Bard, we'll be happy to help you out. :))) GeOBOne : Since I'm a grad student in Educational Technology I thought I might linger a while. MaristR : GeOBone, that's my major. LisaB3571 : Is everyone a teacher in this room? MaristR : Does that mean that we can't use the Apple IIe to call AOL? AFA Bard : Now.... on to tonight's topic! Things are rapidly changing in the world of educational technology... (and everywhere else..) MaryEz : This is destroying my program at school where all we have is Apple gs. Now I willhave to bring AFA Bard : curriculum is changing too. Nowadays, APPLICATIONS courses outnumber "literacy" courses and there's a new argument over whether programming should be taught AT ALL. Here's your chance to voice your MaryEz : everything home and use Apple File exchange. With over 100 scraps, that's a bummer. AFA Bard : opinions.. does programming (BASIC, C, PASCAL, etc.) have a place in the K-12 curriculum????? Susan G2 : Yikes Mary that is a bummer.... AFA Bard : What do YOU think? Susan G2 : My vote....NO AFA Bard : (Major Bummer, Mary. We're converting all the A2 files to ASCII to make it a bit easier, though.) MaristR : Susan, why not? PamErwin : Yes, I think so. I have an accelerated math student, and he want to program using BASIC. It can be u used as an exercise in logic. MaryEz : I think Logo is great for kids and some like BASIC but I don't know how I feel about progamming at the Susan G2 : Because we should be teaching students how to use the technology MaryEz : higher grade levels. BobFrost : In my situation, No. The kids already have enough to learn. If done in curriculum context, maybe PamErwin : Brian(age 10) is developing a program for the Kindergarteners to use....shapes, colors, numbers, lette letters, etc. MaryEz : I think programming is a good problem solving exercise for those who are interested but not as a part of a curriculum MaristR : What about as an elective? GeOBOne : why shouldn't students be given the same opportunity as water... to seek their own level? LisaB3571 : What is programming? I'm lost. HELP! PamErwin : Yes, I agree. Use it for enrichment, or for those who might like to come and "brown bag" it for lunch and do some BASIC programming. Susan G2 : 1) if they can use the technology, then let them help others to use the technology. MaryEz : How about scripting in HyperCard? Susan G2 : 2) Programming might be good as an after school club or something. AFA Bard : Lisa.. essentially, it means writing the computer "code" in languages like BASIC, LOGO, Pascal or Assembly. BCS Frank : Lisa, that's a critical question. There are a number of differing levels of programming. PamErwin : My computer curriculum is in Keyboarding, word processing, and data processing. MaristR : I don't understand all this negative comments toward teaching programming. We teach all the applications class plus programming. BCS Frank : I'd think that multimedia authoring should be a part of near every HS curriculum. BobFrost : work in some "hyper" situation would be a good situation. LisaB3571 : Is the question, should we teach programming to students? MaryEz : Roger, since I see 309 kids every six days there is no time to get involved in something as consuming as programming. BobFrost : Frank, I am not going to be content letting Hypermedia wait 'til HS! MaristR : Why isnt' it offered as seperate course with it's own teacher. I spend about two weeks on PamErwin : I'd like to introduce Hypermedia to some of the kids. Again, perhaps as enrichment. BCS Frank : Agreed, Bob, but HS should -still- use MM authoring. PamErwin : By the way, I'm teaching 2-5. BobFrost : Of course, I still don't have a "hyper" application and don't know what I want but soon... MaristR : programming and rest on applications. We offer full term coures in BASIC and Pachal plus AP computer science. MaryEz : But then I teach 5th and 6 th graders. I believe they do teach programming at the high school. PamErwin : I think they do in my district, also. MaryEz : What grade level, Roger? MaristR : 7th to 12th. BCS Frank : Note that by thetime a grade school student has moved onto HS, the authoring tools will have advanced PamErwin : We used to try to teach LOGO in the elementary program, but didn't have enough time for the MaristR : Most 7th and 8th graders don't have room in the schedules for programming so they usually MaryEz : There has been an interesting discussion on Internet on the EDTECH list about HyperStudio vs. PamErwin : students to get proficient. Now they do it at the Middle school leve. AFA Bard : So do I hear that we're grouping AUTHORING tools like HyperStudio/HyperCard/Linkway into the MaryEz : HyperCard. AFA Bard : programming category?? MaristR : wait until 9th grade for their first course in programming. BCS Frank : The important thing is not to teach one application or language, but to help students.... .... to "ride the wave" of technology. AFA Bard : A smorgasbord, Frank? But what entree when? Susan G2 : I agree Frank! MaristR : We teach Q-Basic, Visual Basic, C and Pascal. Susan G2 : (still anxiously waiting Hypercard for Windows) BCS Frank : Ahh, Bard... that's a judgement call, and the "right" answer may change from month to month. PamErwin : When you say "ride the wave" of technology, what exactly do you mean? AFA Bard : (Welcome Carolyn!!0 Susan G2 : What ever they need to know to get done what they need to get done Bard. MaristR : He means you teach word proccessing and not Wordperfect. BCS Frank : Pam, -everything- we're doing now will be quaint to obsolete in 10 years, computer-wise. Even th gurus have to keep adapting to increasing technological change. PamErwin : Yes, I know, however, use what we have available now to "hook" the kids. MaryEz : How about next week, Frank BCS Frank : Students, as future users, will have to get used to the ride as well. PamErwin : That's how I learned. Once "hooked", one continues to learn BCS Frank : Next week, I like C, HyperStudio, and maybe... maybe Mosaic. Check back on Tuesday. :) DUNMORE : We should use whatever we have now to build the foundation for the future. There will always be Susan G2 : (still waiting for HYperstudio for Windows...sigh) PamErwin : That's great, if your district has the funds to give you what you need. GeOBOne : Isn't the question. Is individualized instruction within the resources available? AFA Bard : LOL, Frank! Roger (Marist), I'm curious what you believe is the rationale for teaching all those programming languages. What are you objectives? DUNMORE : new technology but we can't wait for it to be perfect to start PamErwin : I agree DUNMORE. BobFrost : While on the "mm" subject, anybody got any ideas on Digital Chisel and comparisons with Hyper... stuio or card MaristR : Which teach Q-Basic because it is easy to use and learn the fundamentals for programming. AFA Bard : (Oooo.. hang on to that one, Bob.. I'll put it in the queue for later!!) MaristR : We teach Pascal because the AP exam is given in Pascal. We teach C because the parents and students requested it. MaryEz : People who have been discussion don't think much of Digital Chisel. BCS Frank : Might I suggest a standard other than application feature lists for selecting computer tools? Susan G2 : Roger.....What do you use on your Windows for multimedia? MaristR : We don't have time for multimedia. We are really behind the times there, but I'm not totallyh sold on multimedia. PamErwin : There's some pretty good CD's out there. Especially for elementary youngsters. Susan G2 : No time???? It is a very good way to teach students writing and structuring as well as do something they can show off. AFA Bard : Whoa!!! Hold the bus! Are you folks saying that multimedia and programming is equivalent? is=are! ;0 Susan G2 : I am not... BCS Frank : In contect they are, Bard. PamErwin : NO, we're getting off course, aren't we? MaristR : We are on a tri semester school year with each class only meeting 4 times a week. Susan G2 : I think multimedia teaches skills that we teach in school\ BCS Frank : MM is but a higher lvel class of languages. MaryEz : No, not equivalent, but similar in the problem solving and structure of good stacks or good programs. Jennimay : hi everyone Susan G2 : But that programing teaches something very different. AFA Bard : Welcome Jennimay. Check your IM for the topic. :) Susan G2 : Promgramming is like the science of computers and multimedia is like the langluage arts of it. <---IMHO BCS Frank : Susan, assembly language and HyperCard are both tools, and being good tool users is what we should Mary Bryan : Hi, all. . . just showing a guest around. DUNMORE : Well put Susan BCS Frank : be teaching. MaristR : Susan that's a good analogy BCS Frank : Hi, Mary! Hi, Guest! :) Susan G2 : Hi Mary and Guest MaristR : You should see some the creative things my students create Visual Basic. AFA Bard : So the purpose of teaching programming (in the "root languages" like BASIC), goes beyond just PamErwin : any of you use HYPERSTUDIO? AFA Bard : "giving them tools for use in the workplace?" DUNMORE : If they can use the tools they do not have to know how to make.Not since the middle ages has the BCS Frank : I'd love to have a class really get into that question, Susan... is MM programming? :) MaryEz : Structure and modules that work together or separately are part and parcel of both programming and DUNMORE : carpenter made his hammer. MaryEz : Hypermedia. AFA Bard : Dunmore (Carolyn)... that's the same argument we used to move from "literacy" courses to applications. Are you saying, Dunmore, that programming doesn't belong anymore? PamErwin : I guess MM and BASIC could be considered tools for problem solving. DUNMORE : You don't have to be a librarian to use a library with great sucess. PamErwin : I understand that DUNMORE, but some kids really are turned on by logic and problem solving....understa understanding what makes things work DUNMORE : No i don't say we don't have to teach programing any more BUT we don't have to force all into it. BCS Frank : DUNMORE, I can assure you tat in the machinist trade, personal tool making is alive and well. :) PamErwin : AH, I agree MaristR : That's why it should be an elective. PamErwin : I agree BCS Frank : "Real" programming would be in binary code, anyway. I took a course in that once... was a waste. DUNMORE : There are many things to do in MM that will produce much learning without knowing a PR. Lan. AFA Bard : Marist... an elective? Even for AP/honors kids? BCS Frank : -Everything else on computers is a "higher level" language. MaristR : Yes, all our programming classes are elective. Only the computer application class and keyboarding are required. AFA Bard : BFrank.. I took one of those courses too. You could argue that the OS is the level language we GeOBOne : When I was introduced to basic and found it incomprehensible. It scared me off computers..for several years AFA Bard : should begin with, couldn't you? (operating the OS, that is) DUNMORE : I should be an elective and many will take it but don't force all into it. AFA Bard : Geobone.. what got you back on-board? MaryEz : That's how our system ruined computers for many teachers. They were told to take BASIC and write the programs to use in their classes. BCS Frank : OS is a very high lvel language... and again, any one OS is but a passing fancy. MaristR : We have about 20 in the BASIC class and 3 in the AP Class. AFA Bard : Must be why Windoze classes are STILL packed, Frank. :)) MaryEz : It has taken years to overcome the fright that THAT idea caused. PamErwin : Wow, can't imagine anybody saying that EVERYBODY has to become proficient in programming! BCS Frank : Aye, Bard, but that's another story. :) GeOBOne : I got tired of standing on the bank watching everything to by. Apple helped. AFA Bard : So, Geo... the programming thing isn't for everyone? BCS Frank : Pam, what neareverybody has to be proficient in, is working in a computer based culture. DUNMORE : I agree with MaryEz many are scared off by programing but have jumped aboard with programs. PamErwin : I can imagine that most everybody should become able to apply applications and use the computer as a tool BobFrost : I've taken 3 programming courses. The thing I learned best is that I'm a lousy programmer DUNMORE : That are user freindly. BobFrost : and that it is worth my money to have people program the things I need BCS Frank : It is quite practical for some to go through life without learning our "book codes," too, GeOBOne : Some of us are just too left-brained. PamErwin : I know that using it as tool has made my life so much easier and more interesting. BCS Frank : but I recommend reading and writing remain in the curriculum for at least another decade. AFA Bard : ROTFL, Bob. I hear you! I wonder if we stopped teaching programming if it would have any effect on the number of folks who choose programming as a vocation? BCS Frank : Bob, then you missed getting into the right "language." There are interfaces for PamErwin : I don't think so. I still think those who are the kind who want to know what makes things tick will BCS Frank : all sorts of learning and working styles. PamErwin : seek out courses that teach programming DUNMORE : It should increase the pool of good programers as those just hetting the credit won't fill up the seat MaryEz : Does anybody consider LOGO a programming language? AFA Bard : How about higher level languages like Logo/LogoWriter or hypermedia? (GMTA, Mary!) Susan G2 : Don't know either of those but can use hyperstudio. PamErwin : You'd only get those who are REALLY motivated and then you could go bananas with them. GeOBOne : or is it right? Anyway programming isn't for everyone. BCS Frank : Right, just as most students should take driver's ed, and only a few train as auto mechanics. AFA Bard : Good point, Geobone! Susan G2 : Great Analogy Frank! DUNMORE : Yes a very BAsic one no pun intended. Kids catch on and use it for fun. PamErwin : We use Logo/Writer at the Middle School MaristR : Applications courses are like driver's ed, programming is like auto mechanics. PamErwin : The kids, in general, really like it. Good problem solving tool. MaryEz : I think it is a good as a basis for Pascal because of the sub-procedures and the building up of a maxi procedure. BCS Frank : Unfortunately, the world will soon be like LA... -everybody will have to drive. AFA Bard : And that leaves more opportunities for those who know how to fix a carburator, Frank. :) BCS Frank : Hmmm... no, programming languages are applications too... just self referential ones. PamErwin : I've used LOGO with five and six year olds to teach estimating, direction, shapes, etc. Their too young to truly understand procedures. AFA Bard : How does that type instruction compare with similar geoboard/or manipulative methods, Pam? GeOBOne : I've been to LA and I choose not to go to purgatory until after I pass on. MaryEz : I love LOGO especially the Lego/LOGO robots. AFA Bard : LOL, Geo! PamErwin : Logo/Writer is too hard logistically to get back and forth. It takes too much time teaching the BCS Frank : afk... AFA Bard : The LOGO robots really help make the link between instructions and actions. PamErwin : commands etc. for elementary kids to get to the point where they are in command and telling the computer what to do. BCS Frank : bak! :) MaryEz : I always get hung up in how much to let them explore and how much to tell them. PamErwin : I'd love to be able to use the LOGO robots; not enough money in our district to equip us. MaryEz : I own them, when I go, they go with me. DUNMORE : Amen Frank PamErwin : When I use LOGO most of the time is spent in their exploring. AFA Bard : Is that a negative or positive, Pam? And is that specific to LOGO or other languages, too? PamErwin : Exploring? I think that is a positive BCS Frank : Bard, there is a learning curve on all languages, even library card catalogs (remember them?). MaryEz : I get impatient when they perseverate on making the turtle run around the screen infinitely. BCS Frank : However LOGO has a smaller "entry curve" than most languages. PamErwin : An elementary primary student's time is mostly spent trying to come up with the right answers AFA Bard : Kind of like a faculty meeting, huh, Mary? ;-) PamErwin : in class and using LOGO gives them an opportunity to risk and have fun learning. MaryEz : Right, Bard, exactly. They never get off the mark!!! BCS Frank : By the way there is a new very powerful LOGO out for the Apple IIgs... 3-D functions even. MaryEz : Somebody is still writing for the GS, Frank? AFA Bard : Really, Frank? What's it called? BCS Frank : One way to break the "turtle loop" syndrom is to give assignments in the form of screen shots. Mary, a bunch of people are.... new software and hardware coming out on a regular basis. MaryEz : Can you take a screen shot on the GS? BCS Frank : Mike Westerfield's "3-D LOGO+ ... from Byte Works. AFA Bard : With a CDEV, Mary, yes. See the AUT (Apple // Utility Library) for the file. BCS Frank : Also he makes a LOGO scripting language for HyperStudio GS. PamErwin : What's the consensus on programming for elementary kids? Programming or no programming? BCS Frank : Ahh, that was "3-D LOGO." GeOBOne : The primary motivator is the exhilaration that students get from their sence of control. When they AFA Bard : Pam.. I vote yes, if there's another objective than just "teaching kids to program". I think the real question is... is it the right tool for the job? GeOBOne : can't see the effect. or the payoff is to far off frustration sets in. BCS Frank : Mary, sure can, there are a bunch of extensions for screen shots on the GS. AFA Bard : OK, folks.. what a GREAT issue! I can see we need to explore this in another conference!!!!!! The time FLEW by!!! Now it's time to give away our FREE ONLINE HOUR!!! Altine1231 : I say yes just to introduce them to how and why computers function AFA Bard : (:::: do I hear a cheering crowd? ::::) PamErwin : I'd like to be able to purchase HYPERSTUDIO so my kids could make MM stuff for others BCS Frank : But, but, Bard! We need answers! Now! Come on, what's the answer, huh!? PamErwin : *Applaudir1* MaryEz : *fanfare* *Fightgoeson* AFA Bard : First... remember that next week's Education Chat will same-time-same channel! 8-9 pm ET. The topic PamErwin : *Fanfare #6* MaryEz : *fightgoeson* BCS Frank : Pam remember HyperCard for the GS is near free now... and it's not a bad program, color too. AFA Bard : ..... A2 and AOL: What's happening!? And now... the free hour... MaristR : *DRUMROLL* AFA Bard : (:::spinning the HUGE wheel-o-screennames :::) Altine1231 : {cymbols} BCS Frank : :: rolling out drums ::: MaryEz : *fanfare* AFA Bard : The winner of the FREE ONLINE hour tonight is... MaristR : *DRUMROLL* AFA Bard : GeOBOne!!! MaristR : *YEE-HA!* MaryEz : {}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{{}{}{}{}} AFA Bard : Congrats!!! A FREE HOUR will be credited to your account within 72 hours!!!! Yippee!!!!!!!! Altine1231 : {yeahhhhhhhhhhhhh DUNMORE : Yea for GeOBOne GeOBOne : Thanks I really need it. AFA Bard : GeOBOne.. you WON! BCS Frank : GeOBOne!!!! Way to Go! You can find out how this discussion turns out!? PamErwin : *Trumpets* MaryEz : Gotta go, Bye all. PamErwin : It's been fun!! AFA Bard : Remember.. the LOG of this entire chat will be posted tomorrow morning in the AED new files BCS Frank : ::: the crowds go wild! ::: David Letterman calls! ::: AFA Bard : libraries. :)) PamErwin : See you all next week. AFA Bard : Great discussion folsk! MaristR : I have to go too. See you later. *GOODBYE* AFA Bard : Guess we'll have to wait for CHAPTER II to find out the whole answer to the programming question! G'night all! BCS Frank : Bye Pam, MaristR! :) GeOBOne : g;'night PamErwin : *Goodbye* BCS Frank : Thanks Bard! :) Altine1231 : sorry for bein late see ya althou i'm a pc'er PamErwin : Yes, thanks Bard!! AFA Bard : [[ Pam ]] Great to see ya, Frank. :) Altine... education transcends platform (sometimes!) :))) Alpine69 : What we talking about??? BCS Frank : Altine, the more the merrier; though I should warn you, there are known Apple users lurking about. :) Altine1231 : agreed that's why i drop in AFA Bard : Our education chat topic from 8-9 was "should we teach programming in K-12 education?" The log Altine1231 : i might pick up some things AFA Bard : will be posted in the A2 Education Library later this evening. :) BCS Frank : Course with the platform and OS convergence going on, the different plaform "parties" mean less and less to most users.