Date: 9/11/94 Start Time: 8:00:49 PM End Time: 9:00:12 PM Participants: AFA Bard, AFC Frank, BCS Frank, LostinIowa, MaristR, MaryEz, MIDGEF, PShapiro, SandyE, Shifra1, SNFL, Susan G2 AFA Bard : Thanks to everyone for joining us tonight in the Apple // Education Forum! Tonight's guest is Phil Shapiro. Phil's not only a master of A2 technology, he's a master of ideas as well- he's the originator of many programs in the A2 libraries. He's from Washington DC and describes himself as both educator and, uhm, vagrant! LOL! Phil's with us tonight to talk a bit about the A2 as an EQUITY computer. Let's give Phil a WARM AOL welcome! AFC Frank : Hi there, Phil! :) MIDGEF : Hi everyone AFA Bard : Great to have you here, Phil! PShapiro : Thanks Bard, for your warm welcome. Welcome Midge, Frank, Mary, and Bard and all! MaryEz : *fanfare* AFA Bard : Welcome Midge.. we're just getting cranked up! MIDGEF : Yawn, I'm winding down AFC Frank : Midge! Haven't seen you for AGES! :) PShapiro : I was hoping that we might discuss the migration of Apple II's from affluent schools to the lower income schools. MIDGEF : <-empty nest syndrome NOT! AFC Frank : If that's happening, Phil, it's a GREAT thing! PShapiro : There are currently 1.8 million A2's in schools. Many schools have decided to sell there A2's To me, this is a cloud with a large silver lining. A friend told me he bought an entire Apple IIe system for $25 at a garage sale not long ago. MaryEz : How much are they getting for them? PShapiro : Typical prices for a IIc/IIe monochrome system is $100 to $150. (And dropping.) GS's go for $250 to $350. (Drives & monitors included.) AFC Frank : Can't drop TOO much more. Even if you pay by the pound! :) PShapiro : A lot of "inner city" computer projects would love to get five or ten Apple II's. AFC Frank : The problem with quoting prices is the multitude of CONFIGURATIONS those systems can be in. PShapiro : But they need the tech support to help them make good purchases. Frank, you're quite right about the "multitude" factor. But how about all that extra software AFC Frank : That's true. PShapiro : that is pretty much going to be given away. The software is the stuff with the greatest value. LostinIowa : Are we at the point yet where software is a problem PShapiro : (Speaking as a only a programmer can.) :-) AFC Frank : Yes, Lost.. if you're trying to buy NEW stuff for the Apple II, you are. LostinIowa : Is there still lots of old stuff available? AFC Frank : There are still things coming out for the IIGS, but nothing at all for the IIC///e world. PShapiro : Two years ago I bought two huge boxes of Apple II educational programs, second-hand, for $170. AFC Frank : Yes,there is. PShapiro : Tell us more about new IIe/c software, Frank. MIDGEF : Cindy Field just gave me the new titles for Apple II from MECC AFC Frank : There isn't any, Phil. :) I'm talking about commercial stuff. PShapiro : Oh, yes, MECC did come out with some new IIe stuff. Sunburst did, too. (Cave Quest.) LostinIowa : Is it feasible to locate all AIls in one spot. AFC Frank : When? LostinIowa : if you are in a big district? AFC Frank : What do you mean by "one spot? LostinIowa : We have 61 buildings and just about every apple AFC Frank : It might be feasible, but I doubt that you'd really want to do that. MIDGEF : I'm surprised by how fast Quality Computers stopped bragged they were THE A2 dealer. LostinIowa : Teachers are at all stages of computer literacy MIDGEF : We have mostly A2's here too, but are now buying Mac LC 575's AFC Frank : There are two things that the //e & IIc do just as well as ANY computer. And that's create text. AND serve as modem platforms. BCS Frank : Bard, Phil, Frank, Midge, y'all, Hi! :) AFC Frank : Hi there, B'Frank. :) MIDGEF : Hi! PShapiro : Actually, one of my concerns is that school's will sell there Apple II's to some "middlemen" companies, who will then re-sell them to "equity" schools. AFC Frank : They will if they have to "haggle" with another school, Phil. :) MIDGEF : Guess we are the last A2 lovers left. Says I typing on my PowerBook. PShapiro : I hope online technology can help facilitate direct sales. Hi Sandy AFC Frank : A local User's Group could "gather the requirements" and match them with the "surplus" in the schools too. If you have such a thing locally anymore. PShapiro : You know, some schools would gladly sell six Apple IIc's to buy one Power Mac. I can't fathom how BCS Frank : Of course schools should be in touch with local user groups already. PShapiro : they come to this decision, but I do know that I'd love to get my hands on their surplus A2's. AFC Frank : They aren't thinking, Phil. All they ARE thinking is "outdated" and NEW! And that's a wasteful way to think in a computer-poor environment. AFA Bard : I wonder if local libraries couldn't be a clearinghouse as well-- you know, to get donations? MIDGEF : (Of course, all of us are middle aged and got over NEW a long time ago) PShapiro : I love the idea of public access A2's at libraries. AFC Frank : If nowhere ELSE could, the DISTRICT headquarters sure could! BCS Frank : Part of the problem is that most schools don't see that there's a problem. PShapiro : I've been volunteering at a local library with a GS set up for kids. MIDGEF : We had a GS at our library AFC Frank : The schools may not, Frank, but the teachers sure do. MIDGEF : They sold it with all the software and now have enough to buy only a printer! AFC Frank : When you say "school," I think "School Administration." :) PShapiro : Schools in 3rd world countries would love to get some A2's. There opportunity might be coming up soon. BCS Frank : Right about the administration, but many teachers are sold on the idea that A2's "died" last year. AFA Bard : That's a great idea, Phil. Remember the project we did a while back to get the computer/printer for the Bering Bridge project with the Nome, AK - Russia connection? AFC Frank : Wonder who sold them on that, Frank? PShapiro : Sure, Arlo and co. SandyE : Teachers at my school are eager to get an A2 for their classroom...As MIDGEF said so well, we got over "NEW" a long time ago. BCS Frank : "Authorized Apple Dealers," a triple threat oxymoron. :( PShapiro : In Electronic Learning magazine this month, a Philly teacher loans Apple II's to students. AFC Frank : Those who KNOW the A2 and its capabilities know that "new" doesn't mean much. MIDGEF : Administrators think new is important to parents. AFC Frank : Those who don't rely on dealers for information. PShapiro : Hi Susan. AFC Frank : And THAT is probably the LEAST believable source for what you really NEED. MIDGEF : I'm beat. Had a big day today working to get caught up. SandyE : Hi Roger! AFA Bard : Welcome Marist & SNFL! AFC Frank : Hang in there, Midge. :) Susan G2 : Hi.....P....just lurking.......(really wish I had one apple II for it's video capabilities AFC Frank : And sound? :) MIDGEF : Just to warm all your hearts. My daughter went to college with her Apple IIc and IM2 printer. MaristR : Hey, all. The Simpson just finished so now I have time to conference. SNFL : thanks.. PShapiro : Here's a warm-your-heart story. Got a phone call from an 85 year old fellow who was given an AFC Frank : For papers, that's all she needs, Midge. :) Nice to know that she realizes that. :) SNFL : Any hints about SAT software PShapiro : Apple IIc. He tells me it's time for him to start seriously learning about computers. I went over to his house to show him a few things. It was very inspiring seeing his positive attitude. BCS Frank : Midge, think of the poor Apple workers; you've deprived them of their livelyhood.... AFC Frank : I did something like that for a nursing home, Phil. :) MIDGEF : That's what she said. She got a freshman boy to hook up her VCR, she bribed him with playing games on her IIC. AFC Frank : Hahahaha BCS Frank : :) PShapiro : Really, Frank. I'd love to talk further with you about that after the conference. SandyE : That is so neat, Phil! My mother has considered going to an ElderHostel class on computers! MIDGEF : I'm not depriving any of them. I have a GS, a PowerBook and will be buying a used LC soon SandyE : I think it would be great fun to TEACH such a class AFC Frank : I had a person from one of those places ask me to conduct CLASSES for them, Sandy. :) PShapiro : My mom loves her Apple IIc. Couldn't live without it. MIDGEF : I used to have a IIE AFA Bard : I'd think that "youthful offender" programs could also use the //s. Anyone out there hear of donations to those folks? BCS Frank : I might mention that the Laser-128's are still available and selling. AFC Frank : You had a //e when you and I FIRST talked, Midge. :) MIDGEF : That's right Frank...those were fun days on AOL. AFC Frank : Sure were. :) PShapiro : Frank, what do I need to do to become a youthful offender? AFC Frank : Go back in time, Phil. :) MIDGEF : be youthful AFC Frank : gmta, Midge. :) AFA Bard : I think we're all youthful offenders, Phil. :) Just grown up. ;) PShapiro : Laser 128's, on the second hand market, are going for $100, with monitor. MIDGEF : (Gawd never again) BCS Frank : more or less, Bar :) Bard :) MIDGEF : I LOVE my estrogen patch PShapiro : Now that's a fairly good deal. AFA Bard : I saw IIe's for sale in Europe for $200. AFC Frank : I just donated my first ever Sider II hard drive to a teacher to use with her //e at school. She LOVES it! :) Doesn't have to boot floppies to do something. :) MIDGEF : My Apple IIE is being used in a classroom now. PShapiro : The Washington DC schools started selling IIc+ computers at auction TWO years after they bought them. I was aghast. Simply aghast. BCS Frank : There's little to compare with the thrill of your first hard drive. :) AFC Frank : That figures. Shifra1 : What a waste? MIDGEF : Say, we just found an Apple II+ box with cassettes in it. PShapiro : You know what? If you line up all 1.8 A2's in schools, they'd stretch for over 500 miles. AFC Frank : Spent too many years watching the developments in our nation's capital. :) PShapiro : (I did the calculation on this once.) AFC Frank : :) BCS Frank : II+ can be a decent telecomm machine, or run a BBS. MIDGEF : (Picturing Phil with tape measure) AFC Frank : Yep.. a local BBS. :) PShapiro : The Cleveland Freenet started on a II+. It's grown a bit since then. AFC Frank : It's missing a bunch of keys, and is ALL CAPS, but it's a good machine for a BBS. MaristR : I know a school that uses a IIc and VCR Companion to broadcast announcements over their cable system. PShapiro : Gee, interesting MaristR. MIDGEF : Yawn...got to go. Are we having a final A2 AOL blast night? AFC Frank : Yes, Midge. :) AFA Bard : We've got a bunch of IIgs machines begin used as servers for Mastery Development labs. Anyone else got one of those? AFC Frank : ALL the forums will be live that night. ;) the 31st. Room-hopping party to end all parties. :) MIDGEF : Halloween? AFA Bard : Midge--- YES... the last chat in October will be a HUGE blast!!! Halloween! AFC Frank : Yep.. the last night. AFA Bard : sniff...sniff... PShapiro : I've heard of Mastery Development, but never seen them in action. MIDGEF : I'll BE there! AFC Frank : We're going to activate all the forums. AFA Bard : I'm going to dress as Steve Jobs. ;) MIDGEF : Mastery development lab here in Ragen's school AFC Frank : That's a monday night.. mark your calendars. :) PShapiro : Y'all hear that Woz is still doing neat things with the school in his area? I hear he just went MIDGEF : I don't think you can get your feet that firty Bard BCS Frank : Hmmm... maybe I should come as Charles Babbage? AFA Bard : Phil.. it's a "diskless environment" for IIe's that runs over something like localtalk with a IIgs as a server. MIDGEF : ditry Susan G2 : bard you shouldn't have told us your costume... MIDGEF : dirty PShapiro : to Lithuania to show stuff to their schools. AFC Frank : I'll come as Turing. :) Shifra1 : Does that mean no more A2 forums on aol? MIDGEF : I'll be the Logo turtle AFC Frank : No more LIVE chats, Shifra. BCS Frank : Just don't send an AI, Frank. :) PShapiro : Frank, how do I know it's not your computer that will be coming as Turing? AFC Frank : The libraries and bulleting boards will be retained. BCS Frank : gmta :) AFC Frank : If in a slightly condensed form. AFA Bard : Phil.. good one! However, Shifra.. we'll be MERGING the education forums into one HUGE chat room. We're busy MIDGEF : Love you guys. 'Nite AFC Frank : You don't know me, Phil. :) You can ALWAYS tell the difference between me and my computers. :) AFA Bard : redecorating as we speak! PShapiro : Later, Midge. AFA Bard : Nite, Midge. [[]] AFC Frank : My computers don't have shiny heads. :) BCS Frank : :) PShapiro : Just out of curiousity, any of you folks plan on heading over to GEnie? AFC Frank : I've been on GEnie since 1985. Never left. :) PShapiro : I happen to be a big fan of both AOL and GEnie. BCS Frank : I plan on being there, too, but I'll still be on AOL. AFC Frank : Came HERE FROM Genie. :) AFA Bard : Nope. I still have a GEnie account, but never use it. :) AOL's shown a great committment to PShapiro : AOL is my "home," AFA Bard : education.. and more in the near future. I'm comfortable. :) AFC Frank : Me too, Bard. :) SandyE : AOL is my home and my life (I need a hobby--anybody got any good ideas?) PShapiro : The Education RT on GEnie is too DOS oriented for me. AFC Frank : For those of you who haven't toured Keyword: Charter yet... consider this an invitation. :) BCS Frank : ... and you like the AOL "blind date" parties too much as well. :) AFA Bard : Yes, yes, yes, BFrank! Susan G2 : What is charter? AFC Frank : :) Try Keyword: Charter, Susan. :) New type of schools. BCS Frank : Charter is, like, wave of the future in education. At least, one wave. Susan G2 : ok SandyE : From what I understand charter schools to be, they are schools that have gotten $$ to involve their entire communities (business, parents, schools etc) in an effort to make school "real life" for kids That's a pretty encapsultated version...am I close? PShapiro : Did anyone read the latest issue of Electronic Learning? A nice piece about the Philly teacher SandyE : encapsulated PShapiro : who was chosed EL educator of the year. AFC Frank : Close on everything except the $$, Sandy. :) PShapiro : He loans out A2's to his students. AFC Frank : The $$ don't have anything to do with the concept. Shifra1 : What do they use the A2s for? AFC Frank : State legislatures must pass legislation to ALLOW charter schools. But,rather than take up THIS conference for that, you should probably read about it in Charter. :) PShapiro : Kids probably do word processing at home. Print it out on the schools printers. BCS Frank : I think of charter schools as almost like having home schoolers start their own schools. PShapiro : I really like the idea of loaned computers. No risk to parents . Shifra1 : But risk to the school and/or the teacher who loans them out. PShapiro : Very egalitarian. (Oops. Forgot about that other risk.) BCS Frank : Heck, there's risk when a school loans out a library book. PShapiro : Thanks for pointing it out. Susan G2 : Well I am off to check out this charter area and then offline.....She you all next time. PShapiro : Buy, Susan. BCS Frank : Bye, Susan :) AFC Frank : She doesn't know what she's in for. heehe AFA Bard : LOL! BCS Frank : I'd love to see a national figure, say, Al Gore, come out against schools wasting the 'puters they already have. PShapiro : Right on, Frank. Make it a felony to put a computer in a closet. AFC Frank : Me too, Frank, but you'll never see it. MaristR : We just gave 25 of our old 8088 DOS machines to any facutly member that wanted one. BCS Frank : Heck, that's one educational advancement that wouldn't even cost the Feds any more of (our) money. MaristR : They can use them for running the grading program. AFC Frank : Yep, Frank, but big business would come down on them like a thunderstorm. :) Discouraging the NEW/UPDATE business. :) PShapiro : I'm beginning to really hate the word "obsolete." It's so darn empty in meaning. BCS Frank : Where's Teddy Roosevelt when you need him....? AFA Bard : You said it, BFrank! We're struggling with folks trying to donate old IBM model 25's with no hard disk and little memory PShapiro : I tell people, "obsolete" is a frame of mind, not something that's actually real. AFA Bard : as a tax writeoff. It's breaking us to update them to run even the simplest education programs...what do you folks do about that? (At least the A2's will RUN something!!!) BCS Frank : "White House announced today that compatability with 'AppleWorks' shall be the standard for all...." PShapiro : LOL BCS Frank : Bard, bales of the 25's can be scapped for the gold, trace metals, etc., use the cash to buy used drives etc. MaristR : Bard, what's the counties policy on donations? The last public school I was at, the policy was that we could do anything we wanted with a donation including trashing it. BCS Frank : scrapped ^^^ AFA Bard : LOL, Frank! We'd thought of using them as chocks for bus wheels. ;) SandyE : Gotta scoot, bye all! BCS Frank : Had a local school that was tossing working IWII's in the dumpster. Bye, Sandy! :) PShapiro : Anybody teaching "family computing" classes for kids and parents? MaristR : Bard, give them to your teachers. BCS Frank : Say more about family computing? AFA Bard : Right, Roger, like the TEACHERS have the $600 for a new hard drive and memory upgrade? Not. PShapiro : I like the idea of involving parents in the computer lab. It's fun for everyone. (Less discipline problems.) AFA Bard : (** Remember folks.. a FREE ONLINE HOUR will be given away at a random drawing at chat's end!! **) MaristR : Our teachers use them without the hard drives to run a word proccessor or grades. BCS Frank : Right... the kids'll keep the parents in line. Actually, a local pol might be able to make an issue about wasting computer resources.... PShapiro : Evening classes are usually relaxed, too, since everyone has just had dinner. BCS Frank : ... might be less beholden to the 'puter companies. End Time: 9:05:46 PM Participants: Roll, the Apple II is going stay. Shifra1 : But what about software for these older computers? I mean, if the computer is older, there be no replacement software if the need comes to replace software that is not working. BCS Frank : Shifra, you mean the Apple II's? They still have new software coming out. Recent and future upgrades of AppleWorks for example. AFA Bard : Folks.. before we draw a name for our FREE ONLINE HOUR and wind up our chat.. how about a HUGE AOL Shifra1 : Actually, I was talking about the old IBMs that were meantioned earlier. AFA Bard : hand for our special guest PHIL SHAPIRO!! PShapiro : Thanks, Bard, for inviting me. AFA Bard : Be sure to visit the Apple // Education libraries and download some of the great software he's BCS Frank : Phil, great chat, great topic, and good work too! :) PShapiro : Thanks, all, for participating in this online conference. AFA Bard : donated to the library.. Also try the BALLOONS SOFTWARE are in IC. are=area Now the FREE HOUR.. anyone out there excited? Can I at least get a drumroll? PShapiro : Drum roll. MaristR : *DRUMROLL* AFA Bard : And the FREE ONLINE hour goes to..... SHIFRA1 Congratulations! MaristR : *FIREWORK* AFA Bard : A FREE HOUR will be posted to your AOL account within 72 hours!!!! PShapiro : Congrats Shifra! AFA Bard : ()()()()()()()()()() BCS Frank : Shifra, way to GO!!! :) MaristR : *YEE-HA!* Shifra1 : Oh, thanks so very much!!!! AFA Bard : And thanks to everyone for joining us tonight-- and to PhilShapiro- a hearty YIPPEE!!! AFC Frank : Great job, Phil! You too, Bard. :) AFA Bard : Thanks. ;) PShapiro : So long, everyone. You're all topos. tops. AFA Bard : IF you joined us late... be sure to download the edited log of this chat from the AED libraries (in ASCII/TEXT format). It'll be available in about 20 minutes. :) Some GREAT ideas for repurposing A2 computers! AFC Frank : Fast editor. :) BCS Frank : WoW, you correct all the speling & grammar in 20 minutes!? I'm impressed! spelling ^^^ AFC Frank : :) Editing a chat does NOT include grammar/spell checks, Frankie. :) AFA Bard : Macros rule, Frank! AFC Frank : I see you read part of the chat, Bard. :) Or do you use macros to edit? :) I used to do that. ;) BCS Frank : grumble, editors aren't what they usaed to be..... AFA Bard : Yes, Frank. :) AFC Frank : heehee AFA Bard : Er.. Franks. AFA Bard : AFC Frank.. I'll be getting back to you as soon as I read the MED chat log-- looks VERY interesting. : BCS Frank : gmsa MaristR : See you guys later. AFC Frank : Ok :) AFA Bard : Good night folks!!!!!!!!!!! Congrats again, Shifra!!! AFC Frank : B'Frank, I just told him to download the Charter Live Chat from Tuesday. heehee Shifra1 : Thanks :) AFA Bard : Join us next week from 8-9 for our weekly Education Chat!